JosephH

Fear.

Funny this came up. Recently we have had some bolting activity around bozeman that involves conrad. He is working on this area that is all basalt (not columns) edges, where you are only allowed to bolt ground up. There are some other rules I guess like on the first bolt you boulder up until you quiver and that is the high spot for the first bolt. Now before you bolt it, another person can challenge the route and by bouldering up higher and establishing a new high point for the route. It has turned out some pretty good routes as well as adding character to an area. This is a ridiculous and stupid for establishing "sport" routes. Sounds like a fun, but scary, way to hurt yourself...and an ego stroke (of which most climbing is anyways). how hard are the established routes? Dunno, sounds like they're attempting to insure there is actually some sport left in them...

Hopefully he's not forgetting the puppies while he's at it...

I got together with Conrad about some other, non-alpine business when he was in town last and he's as standup as his rep would suggest. I suspect if they take down any fixed stuff they'll leave it down. Edit: though, on second thought they may need that stuff to get the IMAX camera up with them, that thing is a cow.

My girlfriend is a physical therapist. Her co-workers practically worship her and she has been a huge help to me getting through some bouts with tendonitis. Her take on running after 50 is that you need to be very careful not to overdo it. If you injure a hip or knee joint, you still have to get to the bathroom, kitchen, work, chase the kids, and so-on. Healing typically takes longer and long term joint problems are common. Your 36 miles a week sounds reasonable. A little less would be wise if you are also humping a climbing pack up trails etc. Her point it so spread out the workout. Things like your swimming are a huge help. She has me on a total body workout which is easy for me since I work at home and found a Boflex for $150 at a garage sale. I keep the weights low and lots of repetitions (20-30). Now I have to cut back on the chocolate Easterbunnies. I certainly appreciate the warning - I'm already on notice to take it easy on the swimming for my left shoulder. The conundrum is that either I give up my goals, or I give up the weight as doing what I have in mind above 172 will just be too hard on all off my joints and I've never been able to loose weight without running. I am just running on a treadmill at the climbing gym and am quite careful about it. In the end I will no doubt pay a price for some of this, and though shortsighted even at my age, I'm willing to pay it for the moment.

Your point? Something I said here? Or is it the other thread? True, I don't just rollover and play nice in terms of my ethics simply because they are no longer popular. If you check you'll see my cc postings are pretty damn sporatic.

It's not about bolts and existing routes. It's about entitlement, access, and the 'right' to not be told what or how to climb. And what if they don't give a rat's ass about your ridiculous ancient ethics? You want to climb it with ropes and bolts, the next guy wants to climb it with rungs and cables. They can simply run it parallel to the Nose four feet to the side all the way. Again, what would be the harm? Later.

That's why we call it perspective. IB was done with the worst of intentions from mine. That they got there first is irrelavent - they had no more right to bolt it than anyone else does to remove it.

Kevin, no, you are missing the point and fairly dramatically at that. Exactly how would a cable up the Nose be 'an atrocity'? Would it be just the idea of it? That it would offend your ethics? Who would it harm?

And more likely to follow that one in the years to come at the rate installations are going in around the U.S.

Off, no problem on that front. I've read about Jeff's motivation relative to their creation - I simply disagree with him and others doing so and have no problem saying it to theirs or anyone else's face. That the via ferrata drive in the U.S. is taking place on private land makes perfect sense as will the drive to establish via ferratas in the Valley, Smith, Eldo, Devils Tower and other areas on public land. That drive will arrive in the exact same logic Kevin is using for IB - that to not allow via ferratas on [public] crags is an act of denying people their right [and entitlement] to climb. Kevin wants to climb IB on bolts - someone else is going to want to climb the Nose on a cable. He has no right to dictate how they climb and the question they'll pose is: exactly how does a via ferrata harm anyone? There is no difference whatsoever. And if you think one doesn't lead to the other; or that via ferratas aren't the logical, if not inevitable, extension of gyms and [commercialized] sport climbing, then you're all more naive and tripping harder than I thought. When that day comes, just remember it's a bigger world than your ancient, backwards, and elitist sport climbing era - if you don't want to step on that rung or clip that cable then don't. And don't bitch about imaginary problems of via ferrata installations "harming" the rock because they don't and the rest of your complaints will just be "ideas" without substance. And, hell, who's going to care what a few of you whining old losers think anyway.

My, my, clipping bolts really does help you develop a delicate sensibility. Via ferratas, MLUs, and access restrictions come right along in the wake of disasters like IB and your righteous indignation at the mere suggestion you don't have a god-given entitlement to risk-free climbing. Have to wonder how many of you would be climbers tomorrow if bolts evaporated tonight. Not many I suspect.

Is the conversation making you uncomfortable?

Big in Europe, now creeping through the U.S.

Phil, Wank is about right, do you have anything of substance to add to a discussion you actually know something about? Or is it all just wanking? From looking back through your posts it looks like a weak wank-to-substance ratio...

Well, say we kill all the world's gorillas or all the Redwoods - is that 'harming' anyone or is it just an idea? If we put a via ferrata up on the outer left side of Blownout is that 'harming' anyone or is it just an idea? If we tripled up the bolts on YW would that be 'harming' anyone or just an idea?

No, I'm saying it's inappropriate for a bolted route to exist there at all - it has nothing whatsoever to do with you. It is in no way different than saying I find it wholly inappropriate to smoke in daycare centers. With regards to "harm" - loop to here:

Read it again. You keep insinuating that my position on IB can somehow be characterized as me telling you what you can climb. I'm saying to you that is no different than claiming I'm depriving you of the right to smoke when my position is you shouldn't smoke in public places. I'm simply saying if "smoking" to you means smoking in a daycare center than, yep - I'm guilty of saying you shouldn't smoke - that's because there are places where smoking is simply inappropriate - just as there are places where bolted routes are inappropriate. That in no way is a matter of infringing on your right to climb.

This statement is untrue and you know it. If someone was smoking a cigar (which I love) and I did not like it I would leave the area. BUT I WOULD NEVER TAKE THE JH OR RAINDAWG APPROACH AND MAKE SURE NO ONE EVER SMOKES A CIGAR AGAIN. That statement is an exact and entirely appropriate analogy. No one is suggesting you don't climb bolted routes. I and others are suggesting the bolted route in question shouldn't exist where it is in the same way cigar smoke and dog shit don't belong everywhere. The analogous claim you are making would be saying that the fact you can't smoke your cigar in a busy restaurant or a daycare center is depriving you of the right to smoke cigars. Or to suggest another analogy, recommending you piss in a restroom urinal as opposed to the gutter in front of the Heathman Hotel is in no way infringing on your right to take a piss.

Look if you don't like climbing via ferratas, don't climb them. Exactly what damage would a via ferrata cause? There is absolutely no distinction between your statements and these. If you're assertion is that bolts and bolting have no impact physically, qualitatively, or on access then you are operating from either from willful or unfortunate blindness or a position so ethically bankrupt it isn't worth discussing further. That position would also imply you simply want to emulate risk-free gym climbing outside wherever you please. Your position is no different than a cigar smoker who can't imagine everyone doesn't love the smell of his cigar or a dog owner who can't fathom why anyone would have a problem with his dog shitting in their yard. Hint: Even when cigar smokers and dog owners are a majority their cigars and dogshit still stinks even if they all don't mind breathing and stepping in it. They still degrade the experience of others who do not share the new majority's particular form of self-gratification.

Your vision is non-existent if you can't recognize the damage done. The world isn't bigger than it was 30 years ago - it's just now overrun by bolt-only, risk-averse climbers with an insatiable consumer appetite and a commodity approach to climbing. They have no respect for the rock or wilderness and are self-interested in the extreme in that regard.

Bill, sounds like the hangers were pulled which I would consider a bit unfortunate. I'd say either remove the bolt and hanger or leave both. I very much dislike the whole idea of simply leaving studs almost as much as I do putting the route up in the first place. As raindawg suggests, they should finish the job. If I were to climb there I'd ignore all the existing stuff and just follow my own instinct and line. If that lapped either the original route or IB so be it, otherwise I'd either do it on gear alone or back off if I couldn't. Now the descent is something Kevin could claim is something you need to go look at to make a call one way or the other. Don't know from sitting here.

Nothing about my position on IB has anything to do with you. The folks who put IB up are the one's who did all the imposing. The best way to find that out is to go up and do it or not, but only on gear. The huge hit on the climbing community happened when IB got put up. If someone has put the effort into removing it I would call that community service. This statement and the reasoning behind it is exactly what should be said to the guys who put IB up. Again, that is exactly what happened in the wake of IB being put up - we all lost. It was and is a very public fiasco and complete embarrassment for the climbing community. Hope you're happy. The fact that you don't seem to want to be bothered to understand what makes this 'route' so controversial is half of the problem. You clearly see personal opportunity in it, where others of us see collective embarrassment.

The difference is some of us think that, despite the good intentions and hard work of many involved, that the ultimate resolution was unsatisfactory and represented an inability of our community to self-police and that the outcome was representative of paralysis in the wake of the bolt wars back East. The fact some want to simply put this behind us or relegate it to spray only serves to emphasize the lingering unease associated with this whole unfortunate incident. Hey, there's a good idea on Bill's part Kevin, how about you and I go do it on just gear sometime?

There is nothing whatsoever unique enough about any aspect of Ignorant Bliss which would require I or any other experienced climber to do it to understand it and what it represents. Kevin, that's some pretty tortured logic you have going in the attempt to string together IB's existence and my telling you what you can and cannot climb. Using that logic people can claim I'm personally responsible for their inability to take a via ferrata up the Nose because I'm both against one and would advocate it's immediate removal should one appear. No way should they be letting me tell them they shouldn't be climbing the Nose. You'd have a half a case to make if I went up and chopped it before you could get on it. I consider it far worse than a bolted crack which would have been dealt with swiftly without the all-to-public handwringing and paralysis that insued with IB.