JosephH

Well, to be honest, it's hard to imagine a more embarassing spectacle than that of our community's very public display of paralysis and inability to simply come to terms with the whole debacle in the first place. It is unbelievable to me that a public letter of apology wasn't published by local NW groups and the AF within days or weeks. That letter should have included a statement the route would be removed by the community at the earliest possible date. Now, chopping it now by an individual would be less than ideal, but as far as I'm concerned it would never be too late for such a letter of apology and a community removal of the route. This route is a singular abortion that, regardless of what legal games are played with the wilderness boundary, shows a deliberate lack of respect for those environs and the Wilderness Act. You can go on and on about all the 'effort' that went into the current 'resolution' or say it will show what "weak spirited children" we are if it were to be chopped, but the sad truth is every day the route exists is already a glaring reminder to that effect to all the various agencies involved. It sets a bad precedent and one can only susppose the agencies and conservation groups on the other side of the issue now believe the outcome will be no different the next time this occurs.

'77. Was late at night, I was pretty stoned and thinking about a girlfriend to-be when the rear end of parked 1968 Shelby Ford Mustang GT500KR leapt out and ate me and my bike. I did a full summersault landing on the front windshield butt-first and went flying off the hood. I would have landed on my feet except I hadn't realized it had happened yet. Good thing it wasn't a van...

Bill, give a shout, thanks...

Who were they made by...?

Rhoda and I are currently radioactive with some sort of summer virus that is a particularly nasty affair - maybe next week. Give me a shout later though...

Manufacturing intelligence False statements to the UN False statements in the State of the Union Going to war under false pretenses Unconstitutional wire taps Extraconstitutional rendition Torture All felonies.

I suppose if thirty three years of climbing that is still solidly in sync with the words and values I express here is either short or hypocritical then so be it. If preserving trad climbing values and venues is 'hyper-critical' then, in the same vein as being called nasty by the likes of you, I'm quite proud of the badge... P.S. Oh, and angst-ridden? Hmmmm, let me get back to you after my bj and nap...

Actually, the wife and I keep each other quite content in that regard, and unlike the two of you, if I died tomorrow I could actually claim to have had a life.

Now that I see I missed Off's comments a ways back... ----------------------------------------------------------- It's not any specific climb which is a 'gateway' drug so much as climbs like IB represent a spike in awareness. It's more about each such climb's contribution to the rapid growth of a very judeo-christian / consumer mentality of "it's all here for you and I to exploit as we desire". These days that mentality is seeded and fostered by gyms where routes are essentially sold as a 'product' or commodity whose purchase conveys a certain entitlement and rights to the buyer. In that bargain, buyers inherently expect routes to be 'available' to them, to be provided in a 'safe' condition, and to be 'new' with some periodic regularity. The focus in a climbing gym is entirely consumer-oriented as in, "it's all about you, and these surfaces are here exclusively for your entertainment". The problem is, that sets up a mindset of entitlement and expectation folks carry with them [without question] when they start heading outdoors - they then view outdoor surfaces through the same consumer lens of entitlement and expectation. To some extent you can't really blame them given that's how and what we teach them now. The direct line between them is the inherent and growing sense of entitlement to climb both foster. Now that climbing has become embedded in popular culture, more folks desire and seek this entertainment, right-of-passage, or identity branding - it is slowly becoming a cultural entitlement and 'right' to climb. The rub, however, is what comes with that growing sense of entitlement is the assumption or assertion of a right to have the rock altered to provide a recreational equivelant of ADA access - basically, that all people, regardless of ability, have a right to climb. And while I agree with that in principal, what I totally disagree with is the notion that right includes an entitlement to the rock being altered specifically so they can exercise that right - that the rock [of course] will be altered and outfitted to suit their [lack of] abilities. That's a very, very slippery slope and one you could see coming clear as a bell as early as '75 in the very nervous eyes of all the soon-to-be-sport-climbers hanging out in clutches in Eldo while outwardly looking so totally rad and cool. Once gyms hit the scene it eventually stepped up a notch (or down depending on your perspective) with today's mass expectation of 'safely' bolted sport climbs; a disinclination towards mixed routes; and pressures for retrobolting (see the RC.com retrobolting thread). As the media and pop culture get further saturated, and things like the gym industry's current marketing effort to push competitive climbing in schools takes root, it just ups the ante and social exposure. At some point in the growth curve of that socialization of climbing and sense of entitlement, Via Ferratas will take root with a constituency in a sort of 'escape from mobile carnival climbing walls', to [private] outdoor theme park settings, and on to the point they will eventually escape into the wild no differently than sports climbs, viruses, and GM-altered crops have been all naturally wont to do. I just don't buy the argument Via Ferratas will stay a Euro thing. Make that an Old Bushmills when the day comes...

It's worth tracking the genealogy of these alpine theme parks...

At this point many people around the world are threatening the U.S., but none have done the U.S. and everything the Constitution used to stand for more harm than the administration of George W. Bush. The leaders of this administration have collectively done what no other terrorist or enemy of this nation has ever accomplished and by their words and deeds are undeniably treasonous felons to a person. Nixon was a god compared to W...

And was it bolted before or after IB...?

So long as you embrace community paralysis, collective avoidance, and individual denial.

To show the climbing community can police itself even if it takes 4-5 years to get around to it. See above... If done right, you'd never know it was ever there. It could simply be chopped again. I would have no problem with that...

Breaker bar is my choice - I hate bad work whether it's bolting or chopping. If you're going to go up there and bother doing the right thing then you should be removing/breaking them and patching with epoxy even if that means humping a sh#tload of it up there, and you should be hauling the trash hangers and bolts out.

I think the official acronym is 'prg-o'

yes, but will there be a stranger one...?

Just what do you consider "well used"...? How old? How many lead falls? Sorry, but it's Oregon down here and we're way into recycling...

Kevin, is it then also ego under your rubric if the person you disagree with believes you under-bolted the route and they add bolts - is that ego or did you just inherit the ego for bolting a route bolder than the next guy? Maybe the guy who thinks it's over-bolted simply had a life situation such that he was able to hone his skills, craft, and lead head such that he genuinely felt it was over-bolted for the grade and what the route offered. Is that really ego or a difference of opinion? Sounds like you're saying taking action on such a difference of opinion either way - bolting or chopping - is a matter of ego. To some extent taking responsibility for your own actions does require some degree of ego, I'll admit. Over on rc.com, though, 'Fracture' just wrote about 10,000 words in a thread on how it is actually a matter of duty-bound 'community service'.

It wasn't me, I've been too busy lately for that level of community service...

End of story, Kevin? Just how is it you arrived at this idea that any bolt that gets weasled into rock is somehow sacrosanct? Ego? I can't think of many more audacious acts of ego than placing a bolt. If one were to run your logic out you could say the same thing about removing graffiti. But just which is the more willful expression of ego - the graffiti or the removal...? I see no difference whatsoever given both bolting and graffiti deface a surface and it's a pain in the ass to restore either to its original condition once the deed is done. Removing bolts in many instances is simply a community service no different than removing graffiti. They're both a case of 'art' being in the eye of the beholder. Don't get me wrong, I think there's a place for both bolts and graffiti, but when they end up everywhere and indiscriminantly just because someone likes to see their own spray it can become highly problematic and require remedial action.

Please, having to say "trad climbing" after "climbing" got hijacked by clipping bolts was bad enough - "adventure climbing" is an almost unbearable abomination that simply serves to shuffle real climbing even further back into the shadows. In fact, that this pejorative adjective even exists is about as sad commentary on the real state of climbing today as I can imagine. I mean, what would that make sport climbing if you were to extend the same lexical logic to it, "pedestrian climbing"?

Not at all, it all goes hand in hand, and obesity rates are going up in industrialized countries around the globe. Preventative care is also all about education and training, and dealing with obesity will require a lot of both. I never said it was a sole component of competitiveness, but rather a foundational element no different than infrastructure. You have two options - either you have a healthy educated workforce or an expendable one. India and China are operating on an expendable model and working furiously towards a healthy educated one. They recognize it's all about education. At this point they can afford to pump education and not worry overly about overall health - they'll gleam the best as they go for some time. But no one, not even the Chinese, want to invest in educating people who then are not healthy enough to produce. It isn't rocket science.

You'll get no argument from me there - the self-feeding cycle of corruption and entitlement is killing us...

The U.S. will never stop the competitive slide with this approach. Again, an educated workforce is the only competitive edge we will have going forward and 'baseline catastrophic coverage' will never provide the necessary baseline of family health necessary.