JosephH

Exactly, I do know one of that crew and no bolt would have gone in on the line if there was any conceivable way of using pro. When they sink a bolt, whether on the Nose or on Prusik you can count on it being pro of absolute last resort on a mixed free trad pitch. As for it being drilled on rappel, I don't think anyone on earth to my knowledge has drilled on lead above 5.12. I suppose I should demand that of them, but I'll pass. They tried every single possible avenue of advancing on pro on that last pitch before resorting to a bolt. That's exactly how I trad climb: gear first and fixed pro as protection of absolute last resort. That is trad climbing - there is nothing whatsoever imperfect about my ethics. And if you're trying to contrast the traditional use of a couple of points of fixed pro in trad climbing on a route that definitely pushes limits of trad with a 22 pitch wholly-bolted sport route - and use the 'elitist' argument to boot - well, you way beyond misguided in your argument. There is nothing gray about either route, one is a stellar trad route with a final mixed pitch, the other is a 22 pitch red flag in the face of land managers of wilderness areas. The only 'imposing' that has gone on in this whole matter went down on Mt. Garfield with a drill in hand.

Then they are complete and utter dicks for jeapordizing access and doing it in a highly visible way within the federal agencies dealing with the wilderness act. They still are as far as I'm concerned for attempting to do such a route that close to the wilderness boundary even if they thought it was just outside. It cound only serve to put the FS on notice that that intent is to do more of the same if at all possible. It was and is a completely stupid move as far as relationships with land managers is concerned.

Oh, and that issue of Climbing that focused on history and controversy and which specifically highlighted an article on IB represented less national exposure than DA?

I'll bite, IB, in September - on gear only. Kevin, you should get in on this... I will have already climbed it. Not the way I'm proposing, and hell, you'll have a leg up on us doing a trad ascent. Too early to say, yet...

I'll bite, IB, in September - on gear only. Kevin, you should get in on this...

Nothing could be farther from the truth, Off. I have nothing but admiration for boulderers and always have since early Gill days. Boulderers are taking risks and are totally self-reliant in their endeavors - and the don't dog routes on top of it. I also have no problem with mixed routes, they've always been part of climbing. The problem I have is exclusively with sport climbers. Sport climbing over twenty five years, in combination with gyms, has been a complete and absolute and unequivoval plague on the landscape. A vast majority of folks of 'climbers' today are wholly bolt-enabled and risk-averse and almost none of them would have been climbers back in the day. I make no bones or apologies about it - my clear and abiding preference would be that they weren't 'climbers' today. Again, this 'revolution' is entirely mechanized, and has led to crowding, access problems, and relentlessly threatens trad crags and routes everywhere. When plurality and 'individual freedom' are wholly predicated and based on the application of battery technology and stainless steel to pristine rock instead of personal responsibility I am no believer at all. And hey, I may well be the last guy on earth taking an unequivocal and unvarnished stance against sport climbing, but so be it. The true fascism (or maybe you prefer communism, which is quite a bit more accurate) happening is happening at the point of a drill.

Well, John, if that's truly the case then they don't have much of a collective leg to stand on when it comes to honestly dealing with access issues as they arise with the FS and other land managers up north. Nothing about calling on the community up north to issue a letter of apology or collectively chopping the route is forcing anything on you. People wonder why the FS takes such an agro stance with climbers and why they stick to blanket decrees, closures, and bans - it's both because of incidents like this and their perception climbers are simply banking on them being too resource constrained to do enforcement - that climbers can't be trusted to honor the law. When confronted with those attitudes they predictably respond with more blanket edicts exactly because of those attitudes. If they felt for a minute like climbers would use some restraint, act honorably, self-police, or would actually get invovled in productive vs. antagonistic ways there wouldn't be so many non-negotiable, blanket federal edicts. IB is no different than Delicate Arch and now that land managers have the Internet all these things are immediate, cummulative, inter-regional, and inter-agency.

John, for me it's a case of NIMBY, if it were on what I considered my 'turf' it would never have lasted long enough for the FS to have found out about it. That the locals up north couldn't do the same I find disapointing. The the AF didn't immediately dispatch a letter of apology whether the route was chopped or not in a community effort I find incredulous. And if I chop something you'll know about it. I'm off the porch 3-4 times a week monitoring Peregrines. I'd love to go climbing, but I'm way out of shape as pretty much every minute of my free time is spent doing this instead so I can go climbing...

Bill, nowhere in that post, or in any other post on this topic have I ever claimed to be speaking for anyone but myself. That's what phrases like these mean: After going over an issue in my mind, it doesn't change my views, values, or opinion on a matter whether you or anyone else believes differently - especially when there are no new facts which might change those opinions. Whether you, or 99% of you, consider this abortion a stellar climb, I do not and will never share that opinion - to me it it's an enduring insult to everything I consider worthwhile about climbing (and long or short, no matter how many times you repeat it to yourself, this choss heap is never going to be 'stellar'). If indeed there really are 'thousands of appreciative climbers' for IB having been put up then I for one remain all the more embarassed for that sad fact. Again, I speak only for myself and you are free to your opinions (though I wouldn't ever call them, or the fact that you hold them, delusional). But, I do not, nor will I ever, make any apologies for either my opinions or the fact that I happen to hold this one strongly. Now again, you can say you don't share an opinion of mine - but there is nothing whatsoever 'wrong' about it just because you happen to disagree with it. I say what I feel needs to be said on this issue when it comes up to insure folks know there is another opinion on the matter, however minority. Oh, and I'm a devout atheist, so I don't really care what God's opinion on the matter is. And given I think God is just another weak construct by and for people who need pre-placed protection in life, I have no doubt whatsoever God is entirely on your side in the matter. And Kevin, the quality of climbing on IB is wholly and completely irrelevant; this isn't about that. There is nothing one can experience on the climb that is remotely relevant to my opposition on it. It could be the new Nose or Astroman and I'd be just as opposed it. The fact that it is essentially a run of overbolted choss below a couple of ok climbing pitches just makes it all the more pathetic to have pissed off various agencies over.

Careful Off - a boulderer might stumble onto this thread and want to tangle with you...

I do walk my talk in Washington, just not that far north.

Thank god they're being shown how it's done by professionals. Was this one of the IB FAs in another selfless act of community service.? Private land or not, it's always encouraging to see the right values being passed down to our children so they'll know how to treat public lands when they grow up...

Kevin, absolutely, I think this is one issue where many of us are never going to agree. There's not much RainDawg and I agree on so that's probably indicative of the level of commitment on both sides of this issue.

Well, to be honest, it's hard to imagine a more embarassing spectacle than that of our community's very public display of paralysis and inability to simply come to terms with the whole debacle in the first place. It is unbelievable to me that a public letter of apology wasn't published by local NW groups and the AF within days or weeks. That letter should have included a statement the route would be removed by the community at the earliest possible date. Now, chopping it now by an individual would be less than ideal, but as far as I'm concerned it would never be too late for such a letter of apology and a community removal of the route. This route is a singular abortion that, regardless of what legal games are played with the wilderness boundary, shows a deliberate lack of respect for those environs and the Wilderness Act. You can go on and on about all the 'effort' that went into the current 'resolution' or say it will show what "weak spirited children" we are if it were to be chopped, but the sad truth is every day the route exists is already a glaring reminder to that effect to all the various agencies involved. It sets a bad precedent and one can only susppose the agencies and conservation groups on the other side of the issue now believe the outcome will be no different the next time this occurs.

'77. Was late at night, I was pretty stoned and thinking about a girlfriend to-be when the rear end of parked 1968 Shelby Ford Mustang GT500KR leapt out and ate me and my bike. I did a full summersault landing on the front windshield butt-first and went flying off the hood. I would have landed on my feet except I hadn't realized it had happened yet. Good thing it wasn't a van...

Bill, give a shout, thanks...

Rhoda and I are currently radioactive with some sort of summer virus that is a particularly nasty affair - maybe next week. Give me a shout later though...

Manufacturing intelligence False statements to the UN False statements in the State of the Union Going to war under false pretenses Unconstitutional wire taps Extraconstitutional rendition Torture All felonies.

I suppose if thirty three years of climbing that is still solidly in sync with the words and values I express here is either short or hypocritical then so be it. If preserving trad climbing values and venues is 'hyper-critical' then, in the same vein as being called nasty by the likes of you, I'm quite proud of the badge... P.S. Oh, and angst-ridden? Hmmmm, let me get back to you after my bj and nap...

Actually, the wife and I keep each other quite content in that regard, and unlike the two of you, if I died tomorrow I could actually claim to have had a life.

Now that I see I missed Off's comments a ways back... ----------------------------------------------------------- It's not any specific climb which is a 'gateway' drug so much as climbs like IB represent a spike in awareness. It's more about each such climb's contribution to the rapid growth of a very judeo-christian / consumer mentality of "it's all here for you and I to exploit as we desire". These days that mentality is seeded and fostered by gyms where routes are essentially sold as a 'product' or commodity whose purchase conveys a certain entitlement and rights to the buyer. In that bargain, buyers inherently expect routes to be 'available' to them, to be provided in a 'safe' condition, and to be 'new' with some periodic regularity. The focus in a climbing gym is entirely consumer-oriented as in, "it's all about you, and these surfaces are here exclusively for your entertainment". The problem is, that sets up a mindset of entitlement and expectation folks carry with them [without question] when they start heading outdoors - they then view outdoor surfaces through the same consumer lens of entitlement and expectation. To some extent you can't really blame them given that's how and what we teach them now. The direct line between them is the inherent and growing sense of entitlement to climb both foster. Now that climbing has become embedded in popular culture, more folks desire and seek this entertainment, right-of-passage, or identity branding - it is slowly becoming a cultural entitlement and 'right' to climb. The rub, however, is what comes with that growing sense of entitlement is the assumption or assertion of a right to have the rock altered to provide a recreational equivelant of ADA access - basically, that all people, regardless of ability, have a right to climb. And while I agree with that in principal, what I totally disagree with is the notion that right includes an entitlement to the rock being altered specifically so they can exercise that right - that the rock [of course] will be altered and outfitted to suit their [lack of] abilities. That's a very, very slippery slope and one you could see coming clear as a bell as early as '75 in the very nervous eyes of all the soon-to-be-sport-climbers hanging out in clutches in Eldo while outwardly looking so totally rad and cool. Once gyms hit the scene it eventually stepped up a notch (or down depending on your perspective) with today's mass expectation of 'safely' bolted sport climbs; a disinclination towards mixed routes; and pressures for retrobolting (see the RC.com retrobolting thread). As the media and pop culture get further saturated, and things like the gym industry's current marketing effort to push competitive climbing in schools takes root, it just ups the ante and social exposure. At some point in the growth curve of that socialization of climbing and sense of entitlement, Via Ferratas will take root with a constituency in a sort of 'escape from mobile carnival climbing walls', to [private] outdoor theme park settings, and on to the point they will eventually escape into the wild no differently than sports climbs, viruses, and GM-altered crops have been all naturally wont to do. I just don't buy the argument Via Ferratas will stay a Euro thing. Make that an Old Bushmills when the day comes...

It's worth tracking the genealogy of these alpine theme parks...

At this point many people around the world are threatening the U.S., but none have done the U.S. and everything the Constitution used to stand for more harm than the administration of George W. Bush. The leaders of this administration have collectively done what no other terrorist or enemy of this nation has ever accomplished and by their words and deeds are undeniably treasonous felons to a person. Nixon was a god compared to W...

And was it bolted before or after IB...?

So long as you embrace community paralysis, collective avoidance, and individual denial.