JosephH

But then of course, you have no fucking idea how stupid or not that might or might not be so it's a pretty mute point beyond you simply talking out your ass... Pulling on gear is yet another subtopic and another bad idea unless of course you're an alpine guy.

RuMR - it could just be that, appearances to the contrary at times, that you're simply not an idiot and do actually manage to maintain plain common sense when dogging on gear. But your experience isn't everyone else's and you clearly haven't been following along the various forums if you've missed those accidents - he'll we've had a couple of it out at Beacon in recent years. And actually I'm really good at gear, but then I also don't dog on it, good or marginal.

John - I don't bad mouth someone else's style behind a guise of "it's dangerous" - I bad mouth it on both counts independently - it sucks ethically and it's incredibly stupid from a safety perspective. But you're right, people are certainly free to make stupid decisions for themselves.

Kimmo - I don't use chalk for a variety of reasons - first, it's a disgusting feeling on my hands; second I look like the Pillsbury Doughboy about five minutes after being handed one; and third is what it does relative to the creative process of climbing. Back in bumfuck SoIll where we climbed the rock had no cracks and no edges - just isolated pockets, horns, and ribs. Half of the challenge of climbing for us was simply seeing a climb, the rest of the challenge was working out the sequence, and the least of it was climbing it once you did. We were way into the 'puzzle' aspect of it which is instantly destroyed the moment you apply chalk. Beyond that we saw the affect it had on the Eldo locals when we'd go visit there - most wouldn't climb anything that didn't have chalk on it, whereas everything we touched back home was an FA and so we were always straying from dotted line which the locals hated. The 'follow the yellow brick road' and 'move like I move' mentality chalk fosters and perpetuates has always struck me as sad at best. That, and because 98% of the time it's completely unnecessary no matter what your head is screaming at you... Skykilo - Alpine climbing by and large is alpine climbing, mountaineering is mountaineering; the intent, objective, and game is different.

Because it's an incredibly dangerous habit - gear placements aren't bolts. The plain fact is that "plain common sense" seems to be evading tones of crossover folks these days and by that I mean they're way too busy working the moves to be bothered with rechecking the placement after every go at the move. I've been seeing progessively more and more accidents as a result of this over the past ten years.

You're talking about various subtopics which have always generated discussion on their own. And you're right the words have generational context relative decade by decade such as trad climbing existed before clean climbing. But make no mistake about it - in the era of clean climbing, the use of fixed pro (bolts and pins) in free climbing was extremely extremely judicious and the few slab or face climbs that were wholly bolted had bolt spacing that would be deemed X-rated by today's sport climbing standards and proponents. As for the tactics used in climbing - Off can tell you as well as I that dogging was as big an argument as the bolts that made it possible. For many of us dogging was far more the insult than the bolts. So when you see old guys insist on being lowered after a fall and then pull the rope for another try, that's because that was the prevailing ethic of the day. Such 'crossover' use of tactics is still germane today but in the reverse scenario - people sport climbing on gear, or what I call "sprad" climbing - which is folks dogging their way up trad climbs. This is incredibly common these days and is always a drag to see both for ethical concerns, but far more for the fact it is an incredibly dangerous habit to get into along with just being a lousy approach to trad climbing. It's also one generating a lot of decking accidents of late. Trad placements aren't bolts and shouldn't be treated like they are - any time you weight or fall on a piece of gear it's imperative you check and possibly reset it if you intend to climb above it again.

also take a look at Jens' free ascent of dragons of eden...that guy is living his passion... Kimmo, it's not dead, but has been pursued and valued by an progressively smaller and smaller percentage of the total climbing demographic over the past 20 years. During that same period the rock around major metropolitan centers has been bolted in ever an increasing radius. In Oregon that trend has basically been to infill [bolt] crags up the Gorge between Mt. Hood and PDX and of late between Mt. Hood and Smith. Beacon and Trout Creek are the standout exceptions to that infilling trend. The essence of the entire discussion is well-summed up by the very exisitence and use of the term 'adventure climbing'. There was a time not all that long ago (hell, even Off can remember it) when trad climbing was 'climbing' and didn't need to be qualified by a prefix and all climbing was an 'adventure'. But real climbing has now been relegated to the shadows where it can be ignored or referenced as an peculiar exception (that only guys like John Frieh do). Why? So the culture of the majority (sport climbers) could co-op the very term 'climbing' and drop the prefix 'sport'. In the end words and semantics really do tell the real story of decline. But if the real story were present in our vernacular than the climbing done by the overwhelming majority of today's climbers would be called 'entertainment climbing'.

Pretty much a spot on observation. But I'm pretty damn particular on that front as well.

Kimmo, I do, mainly putting up FA's whenever and wherever I can. Locally I climb trad as well and also do get involved. From that perspective Eldo and the Gunks get 'it' right, but there's not much in interest in that sort of thing around here. Josha Tree did adopt a sensible plan but have no enforcement per se - bolts are flying just as fast and furious there as anywhere.

I appreciate you're being able to see what it is I do hold to. Not much different than being watching the old west slip away as the country headed into the 20th century. For me it's about what I'd guess it was like for an indian watching the Buffalo being slaughtered in a consumptive wave until they were all but gone. No point in fighting it, it's a lost cause; but that doesn't mean I'm getting onboard or start particpating in it. It's not my deal. I do climb without chalk, and I do sweat like a normal human. But the real truth is that 95% of chalk use is purely psychological, particularly on most all basalt and sandstone. I'll grant you on a lot of polished granite like you find in places like the Valley it has real merit, but for the average climber on any-crag-USA, the reliance on chalk is a joke. But most climbers start with chalk day one or shortly thereafter and have no idea what they are capable of climbing without it. Oh, and dosing - yeah, that on the otherhand is pretty much SOP. EDIT: Kimmo, oh don't worry about me - I'm not jaded, imprisoned, ruined, or anything else. I climb what I want to climb and am enormously happy to be able to. The only thing I carry from place to place is the desire to do groundup, onsight trad FAs. Come down, rope up, and see for yourself.

Well, back in bumfuck there some TR routes that command enough respect that folks have tried various means of pre-placing pro in them to lead them so they wouldn't have to step up to the TR.

K, Oh, hey, trust me, I understand you guys don't like the fact that folks on a via feratta are wearing a harness, clipping pre-placed protection, and climbing rocks - god knows it's a real leap of logic to sport climbing from that. Maybe going out the other end of the spectrum from "adventure climbing" we should call it "comfort climbing" - but climbing it is, at least if you use the definition of sport climbing as the criteria.

I'd say you're the thick one. The mental exercise is exactly equivalent with the difficulty rating and skill set is all that changes. Thin folks on sport climbs, fat folks on via feratta - vertical movement and clipping [close to their limits] - I fail to see the difference. And for most single pitch crags - clipping - how innane and pointless if "physical rock gymnastics" is what matters. Again, the horse is long dead and we've both been climbing about the same time and come away with entirely different experiences - nothing about what you're saying here do I even vaguely agree with.

Well, you have to take into account I'm a real throwback and have been anti-chalk, anti-bolt, anti-rating, and anti-guide all along. All of those contribute to what "is known" on lines. In fact the use and dependence on guidebooks has kept untold numbers of climbers from ever developing an eye and being able to directly map their capabilities to a line on sight. Chalk has always led to a climb-by-the-dot mentality - no shortage of Eldo locals BITD who wouldn't consider climbing anything without chalk on it and leaves nothing to the imagination relative to figuring out sequences. All in all it's entirely possible you and I climb for entirely differnet reasons.

No equivalency? Via ferratas are simply someone moving the slider up slightly on the "I'm-entitled-to-have-someone-make-it-so-I-can-get-vertical" console from sport climbing. Time will tell on the proliferation. If you really wanted a serious conversation around the realities of sport climbing you'd start with a guess of how new bolts (not retro- or re-) have gone in anually in the last five years and the next five years. I would be willing to bet that the total count of bolts sunk from 1949-79 get sunk in a month or two max these days.

Yes, trad. Same in Krabi, the only trad rack in the country at the time I suspect. Not really into the 'do as the Euros do' sort of thing, though I suspect the proliferation of via ferratas in this country has only just begun.

Folks weren't sport climbing on the West Coast in the 60's and 70s and I don't have a problem with bolts used judiciously - Eldo and the Gunks as perfect examples. I have a problem with rapaciously paving over every rock in the country with bolted sport lines, particularly given the resulting demographic, mentality, and "conformity" they perpetuate. And truth be told, my main objection back around '82 was the dogging, and that sport lines should have some rating distinction. But that's not news, and I have no problem being one of the last remaining climbers alive who feels that way. Also, I have zero interest in the popularity or other's perception of the lines I put up or do. I don't climb for other people and if a route of mine is never repeated and / or people don't care for it, that's fine with me. I agree the horse is long, long dead, I only posted here relative to how it got that way.

True enough. It must have been the horse The Impossible was riding to escape on. We know who murdered them, but up until now it was a mystery as to exactly how the horse died...

I'm not trying to be a better climber than anyone else, I'm just trying to be ballpark of the climber I used to be. To do that I need every day out I can get. Besides, at 57 and beat, I have what - possibly just this year to get that [endless] FA done before I have to give it up and then walk under it as undone anytime I'm out there.

Ah, yes, I have been over-compensating for not being able to climb as many days out at Beacon as I'd like so I decided to do something about it. Over the five years that's netted me close to three months of extra climbing out there.

You posted up on one of the other Beacon rants about being a 'has been' climber and something about shoulders. Did I misinterpret that and actually you're good to go and climbing at 100% - hey, fuckin' great for you if that's the case. Some of us are just old, beat up, and definitely have to compensate in some way for it.

Well, with 6k posts of spray it's sometimes hard to make out what you're talking about, if anything.

that explains alot... I does. It explains why I can still get up a lot of things younger climbers with less injuries don't. I wouldn't necessarily knock it now that you're getting older and gimp...

Yes

Olde happens - better to sit it out and not climb if you haven't been developing a high pain threshold and compensating technique.