tele_nut

Add vegetablebelay to the banned list.

Very cool!

I certainly believe that people have the right to know that this is *probably* (undoubtedly?) the real underlying reason for us going to war. Essentially it is a proxy war with Europe waged in the middle east. It is a sad state of affairs when government assumes that it's people are stupid and naive and that it somehow has to B.S. it's way into a conflict. Think...since average Joe like you and me can figure this out how certain do you think that average Joe congressman or Senator whether democratic or republican knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they voted for the start of the war? Now they want to play politics and bury their heads in the sand in order to appease their constituents...some things will never change. The new Iraqi currency is already being valued (EST.) on some markets at almost 4 to 1 with the USD. 3 to 1 on conservative markets. I am buying ID at 1300 to 1 right now on the open market.

Check out the Powell Peralta "Skull and Crossbones" logo in the window over Bob Mould's right shoulder. I had a deck like that one when I was one of the young punks. That pic must be circa 1985 or so. I can remember watching Tony Hawk at a street skate about that same time. Guess we're all still hanging around. It's nice to have constants in life. Did anyone check out Joe Strummer's (CLASH) last CD? I heard it was damned good. I read some of the lyrics they were writing in the early-early 80's and I am pretty blown away by what deep thinkers the Clash and some other bands were. A song written in COBOL or FORTRAN? http://www.lyricattack.com/c/theclashlyrics/siliconeonsapphirelyrics.html

I can't remember if ZDFG was registered or if it was just a name used during the open posting period (pre-registration period). The original ZDFG was someone else, identity still unknown.

You forgot Littlebunnyfoofoo and The Antagonizer...

"Here is your stability my main man". http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html If you remember earlier I posted that I personally did not believe the stated reasons for the war. I have ALWAYS believed this was a war of economy. Since I enjoy the standard of living I currently maintain, and I would like my children, and my grandchildren to be able to enjoy it...I have no heartburn being here. I am going to buy a big fat gas guzzler truck when I get back. Paid for by my contracting salary and drive it till the tires fall off. If you want to pine away for your stated principals feel free to, but remember when you are out climbing (which is in fact somewhat of a rich man's leisure sport), having driven there in your Audi, just feel free to plug in that 75.00 cam, and thank Bush and his politics for your good fortune. If the thought of losing 40% of your money and rife unemployment sounds good then fall down on your face and bow to the new Euro dollar instead. Hell, move over to Chamonix and get a job waiting tables because it will probably pay more than your current job. I do respect the idea of a higher path (and your ideals), but I do not believe that we could have beaten the Euro's to the punch in this instance. We have moved the big Queen on the chess board of the world and now anything goes. Over here in Iraq they're lucky to have a few hours to play english football for fun.

This band was heavily influenced by one of all my all time favorite bands. If you were into the Pixies or Frank Black then I suggest you check out "Zen Arcade" by Husker Du. It has been called the "Tommy" of the punk rock generation. http://world.std.com/~thirdave/hd.html

Hey tele_nut, Just imagine, I was falling asleep on the couch when suddenly an unresolved issue came up. How come the guys in uniform are not supposed to express any bad feelings they may have about the current venture, yet they seem to have all the leeway they need if they feel like spewing in support of it? I am genuinely interested in your response. Erf, "I, _____________ERF______________________, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Here is yet another example of what I keep trying to interject into this debate. Once again someone is quoting sources when they really have no clue about the realities of the actual event. You're presenting BOGUS information. I personally work or have worked with dozens of Grenada veterans who were on the ground in various capacities. One example is Steve Trujillo who was awarded the Silver Star with V device for his actions at Calivigny Barracks. I have also spoken with 4 star General Abazaid (CENTCOM CG) about the Ranger Regiments refusal to allow Hollywood to use the actual unit that participated in the infamous tractor incident on Point Salines DZ. Instead they substituted some fictitious USMC unit who did not participate in the airfield raid whatsoever. The students at Point Salines were indeed real (not fabricated) and were incredibly grateful for the rescue affected by the combined Task Force from Ranger Regiment, 82nd ABN, DELTA/SEAL (DEV GROUP/CAG), and USMC elements. The Cubans were onsite building the largest military runway outside of Cuba itself. Somehow, now years after the fact this obscure, yet important military operation is being quoted by someone as being fabricated? I call bullshit on that one. If you guys really want to know whats going on over here, get off the couch, turn off Communist News Network, and get on a plane. I'll personally pick you up and give you the guided tour.

Erf, What's the solution from the safety of your couch? Clue us in.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/

http://www.johnkerrysucks.com/idekiafrum.html

No disrespect, but you're way off on this one. The majority of commoners as well as clerics would prefer for the US to stay put for the time being. This is verified via opinion poll right here in Iraq. The oil industry will be a commodity that will not be nationalized. Private sector. Elections are being discussed again, but it's probably going to be an appointed council for the time being. http://iraqcoalition.org/ There is currently not enough infrastructure in place to be able to allow the Iraqi's some of the more basic freedoms we associate with democracy. The Baath party was a secular party and the people here are not fanatical Muslims like most of you are not fanatical Crusading Christians. There is only one major cleric in the south right now who opposes CPA's current plan to put a governing council in place. After the Iraqi's are in a better position to control their own security and basic functions there will be a lessening of US control. Already in Baghdad there is less and less of a military presence and the current deployment plan is for 1st CAV to patrol only in soft vehicles. If the Shiites tried to suppress the Kurds they would be slaughtered by a much more capable ethnic group. No one wants to mess with those guys anymore. Everyone here hates the Sunni's. I really honestly believe that what I am reading here reflects more on what you are all being led to believe by liberal/right wing news sources than by actual facts and events.

I guess under your reasoning then you most likely would have opposed the United States entrance into the 2nd World War? Time and more information seem to point towards some shady conspiracy theory that allowed us to be driven into that conflict. Time and actual events showed that to be a just war with favorable results no matter the catalyst. Once again I see this current situation as merely political rhetoric in a political year. You seem to imply that we should have taken on the threat that Korea poses first. This would be like taking on the World Cup champions without even playing a few pick up games with your team first. A certain recipe for disaster. In a larger strategic sense the war can be justified simply as a message to rogue nations to toe the line we set or feel the effect of our disdain. Tactically Iran is now pincered and contained without having to fight in the mountains. Korea in my opinion should be taken care of by Japan and China with our support. As far as fairytales. I CHOOSE not to see the world through the ambiguity of shades of gray. I choose sides and make stands even if I am able to see the fallacies. Personally, I did not believe the reasons why it was stated that we go to war. I am not saying that it was an outright lie either. The intelligence community had been seriously degraded under the ho-hum politics of Clinton. During his tenure we were bombarded by continuous terrorist action and that president did little to tackle the issue except cut spending to important agencies. The CIA had their hands tied by being under budgeted. I do support military strategic goals as they relate to insuring the integrity of our nation. As far as creating a more palpable terrorist culture...brother...it's on and has been for a long time. Russia's Vietnam is now a legacy conflict. Massoud told us this would happen over 14 years ago. Now, giving them a place to come try their luck and die is a smart move. Let me also remind all of you that Iraq fired on coalition Iraq in restricted airspace defying UN resolutions for 13 years. This alone could have justified us bombing them to the stone age. If you've ever seen the effect of a JDAM strike, and I have, you will realize that we used great restraint. Failure to choose sides and endlessly debate is more of a miasma than your so called 'mantra'. You take the red pill and I'll take the blue pill. Personally I would rather be so far down the rabbit hole that I'll never see the light of some of this apathy again. Give me hard realities with dire consequences any day. I do not bow to many authorities and a statement like that would be better spoken if we had met first. John Kerry is a good man, with some common sense values. He has "been there" to some extent. However, sending a dove to do a wolves work when the enemy is at the gates is a fools move. Perhaps after 4 more years we can take a good hard look at this guy again, but not this time around. Our enemies are simply waiting for a 'regime change' via popular vote to once again start their insiduous attacks in earnest. Thanks for your comments. They were very well thought out and appreciated. I remember that this country was founded on civil disobedience (not saying that having an opinion compounded by principal is disobedient), and most people recognize that there will always be alternatives to the prevailing mindset. Sgt Alvin York is a prime example of a someone who provided service to the nation despite his beliefs (Religious).

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." ~John Stuart Mill My guess is that most of the political debaters on this thread have never been in a fight, never had the threat of danger (other than the real fight or flight kind associated with climbing) hanging over their head. The kind where someone is stalking you, and you have to figure them out before they get to you first or find you in a vulnerable position. If you distill this debate down to it's simplist form it amounts to would you would fight for something you believe in no matter what the reason, or you would refuse to fight for something no matter what the cost. If the causes of the war were indeed fabricated (which is unlikely, and since I am the only poster on this board posting from Iraq I guess I have all of you on trumps for being here to begin with) then might the ends ultimately justify the means? It seems like you are debating a dead horse created in an election year by those intent on building a case for their OWN AGENDA's. Namely a weakened democratic party. Looking backwards at this point serves nothing to bring this war to rapid fruition. We are in it. It is going on right now, even as you read this. I know. Not more than 2 hours ago I was flying over Baghdad watching the beginnings of a sizeable firefight and rocket attack. Another one of those nameless, faceless events that matter little to you, because to you the big picture is endlessly debating far from the actual events that in many many many ways do not REALLY effect you whatsoever. Despite your angry grumblings and regal sounding edification you all end up right back where you began. The whole title of this thread seems to be misinformed because there is no way to prove that GWB lied. True, people have died. I have seen some of them since I've been here with my own eyes. Good men and women. Young and filled with hopes and I am sure every one of them believed that they would not be the ones to be killed. I know I think about it everyday. It comes close, but close seems far away. I hate to see you all arguing over something that seems to be nothing more than trivial bickering. What would seem better would be to contribute something to the people of Iraq who have suffered, but do not suffer anymore. This is by far the most beautiful of all the Muslim countries I have seen so far. There are riches here, and history, culture, rivers, forests of date palms. Beautiful women and strong able minded men. They have been freed from a dictator that has driven them to the brink of utter poverty with cruel policies and self centered ambitions. Many Americans, British and coalition troops have died to give these people something that you take for granted. Yet, you argue and bicker and divide amongst yourselves over the name of a party or an idea. There is no hope in this. There is no peace in this. Sometimes we have to do the right thing no matter what road we take to get there. We have done the right thing in this case, and in Afghanistan, and in many countries in the past. All of these news items are just words written by people who get paid to make words. The real Iraq is here. The real reasons for the war are here. I guess I really don't know exactly what I am trying to say other than you all should stop arguing over right and wrong and just try to be in this moment instead of outside of it.

The soldiers, marines, and civilians in Iraq are doing a great job to insure that whatever mess the administration may have created has a happy ending for the people of Iraq. Despite what the news media portays there are so many success stories, and a lot of Iraqi's pleased to be staring a happier future in the making. Actually a very fine people with a proud history.

Speaking of ice tools and snorkels. I sure miss watching Dan Osman's crazy stunts. R.I.P. Dan

Sie alter Dummkopf. Ich bin der Geist in der Maschine. Ich lebe als immer. Sie fürchten, was ich sagen muß, folglich zensieren Sie mich. Ich belebe immer wieder und wieder wieder. Sie können mich nie beruhigen, aber Sie fürchten den Tag, den ich bei einer Ihrer Versammlungen ankomme. Sie sind nicht dann so eingebildet.

Groupies.

http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/sited/story/html/45210 Wierdest stuff in the woods? Heads and body parts of various animals strewn about (Washington-exit 38 area), religious shrines apparentally used in Satanic rituals (Front Range, Colorado), Pallets of Mustard Gas shells (Gualdalcanal).

Spending 50 or 60 days a year foot patrolling the area and about 120 days a year climbing, hiking, mountain biking, in this district has left me with the impression that the majority of the shady creatures are in the middle fork and several off the Garcia road near Mcllelans Butte. I have spent days traversing this area (armed) searching for things of this nature. The property values in the Mt Si area are high to extreme and with CEO's of Boeing and various celebs quietly hanging around the amount of tolerance for this sort of criminal activity is small. There has been one confirmed meth lab of relative importance in that immediate area and it is accepted that there are operations throughout most of the counties of Washington State. Another meth site was the famous "red house" off the Denny Creek Road. Now abandoned and supposedly up for rent.

When you make a post to get everyone thinking about a baby's genitals, does that make it child porn?

Shredmaximus had some great videos in this thread. Good to show how it's done. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/289513/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

Avy Source Lake previous season..