olyclimber

this whole paragraph reminds me of the democracy in Iraq. We just need to stay the course, and soon they'll be out of the sweatshop and driving Lexuses

No, i do all my thinking online. I really don't know that people had NO hope before they got exploited...i disagree with that entirely. You're basically saying the exploitation is a great thing. I don't think it is. I'm right. You're wrong. What don't you understand about this? I'm saying they should fight for a fairer wage. What is wrong with that? Admittedly they probably won't. You're also agreeing with me! I'm saying I support these people's right to have organized labor. Did the United States NOT do this? Did it not result in improving our quality of life? BUT, because something wrong happened to us in history, is does that make it all good for someone else now? What you are saying, for instance, is that well...the development of the third Reich and its subsequent destruction is a "natural process" that many countries will go through. can we learn NOTHING from history when it comes to suffering, so as to prevent it? you truly must be a buddhist to think such thoughts.

do you know how to suffer carl?

By the way Jay, I fail to see how Kristof's article is relevant to what I was talking about in my conversation with myself. I was talking about the right of sweatshop workers to organize. Kristof is talking about "banning products". I never argued with myself about that. I think Chuck is correct...organized labor is just another market force. it also isn't a silver bullet. another market force is disgusted consumers. but, as I said before to myself, that is not a reliable force. people will always go to the lower price at wallmart. the dollar has little in the way of morality. i do think that Kristof is full of it. he has taken the position of being to intimidated by the problem, and just declaring it "to hard to fix", and I assume to just continue on in a "kill or be killed" world. little doubt that that will happen, especially with that attitude. if you don't believe you can do something, you never will. but then there is an easy answer: "The Buddha’s discovery of the solution to the problem of suffering began with the recognition that life is suffering." Suffer onward!

Sweatshops = kewl

I addressed many of your points in my conversation with myself. I skimmed Kristof's article, seems to have taken your own pessimistic view of things (or did you take his). "Suffering, get used it. " What sort of B.S. answer is this?? WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE THEN SOMEELSE WILL SUFFER. You seem to be stuck in a rut there Jay, along with Kristof. Paralysis. Do nothing! Wait for the invisible hand! IT WILL CURE ALL!!! And why are we limited the conversation to just those that are exploited at this point? If the exploitation will move else where, will not the cause of organized labor? A round the world shuffle of misery and relief? (or relief and misery, if you take what appears to be your own outlook). Why would you deny these people the right of organized labor that the United States enjoyed during a time that it needed it? Are you telling me that the U.S. NEVER needed organized labor and that all the advancements made by organized labor are rubbish?

No, I was talking to myself. The conversation was with myself. I ended it. As far as yourself, I don't doubt you have honorable (misguided) intentions. You may even believe you are right, just like Bush believes he has "made our country more secure from terrorists"....I don't know, can't read your thoughts. Why don't you just go ahead and read that article yourself and sum up your point. When you're done, I have some other stuff for you to read.

Perhaps their slogan should not be "Run with Us" but rather "Run from us"?

AWESOME! Man I loves me some fall desert sunshine. Thanks for the TR. Great shot!

the cool take away JayB has gifted me with from this conversation is that no matter if you are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd world, no matter your wealth or lack of it....we are bound together by suffering. now if i could just learn to deal with my suffering as Gap/Nike/etc factory workers have... http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/Noble.htm its also hip! maybe I'll start riding a single gear bike next.

Chet Guthrie, is that some poke at Arlo, the well known communist sympathizer?

Thankfully for who? For consumers of their cheap plastic crap, so that Wallmart can stay afloat? Let face it, we here enjoy lower prices at the expense of others. Lets hope they don't figure that out! The moment they start demanding a quality of life equal to ours (maybe in the form of a union) we are screwed. So i guess its kill or be killed. Long live cheap plastic crap! In the case of "the government keeping the workers pay down" isn't starting a union akin to a democratic revolution? Would that not be a good thing? Are these governments just doing it because its profitable to keep the man down? Oh...it is our friend, the invisible hand. What would happen to the scores of millions of people who use the wages that they earn making the cheap plastic crap to provide themselves and their families with food, clothing, and shelter if no one bought it anymore? All that would happen is that we'd pay slightly more for a given set of goods until someone combined marginally lower labor costs with increased automation somewhere else and provided the same goods at a lower price, and they'd starve while some other country reaped the benefits of the trade and foreign direct investment that they relinquished. Don't look for the Chinese to chose door number two anytime soon. If I was concerned for anyone, I'd be concerned for the American or Euro who is convinced that the accident of his birth in a first world nation entitles him to a certain standard of living no matter what. Don't expect Ming-Li and Rahesh to cry any tears for Chet Guthrie because he can't parlay his high-school diploma into $80K a year with full bene's because they are working too hard over there. so you're saying lets go with the status quo because change is HARD and MESSY. and if we change it is will just screw up someone else's life. SOMEONE has to suffer, why change things. let the people who obviously enjoy suffering continue on. well thats a great attitude Jay. well, its not like our talking about it here is even going to make a scratch in anything. from my 1st world throne amid my plastic crap, why would i want to change anything. and you're right, they probably won't change anything. and unions are the root of all evil. and the invisible hand will care for all. conversation over.

there are stats there for that to help you

Note to Homeland Security: That was a joke.

No, I just joined the Communist party.

WTF! He TOTALLY ignores the stellar ice of the PNW. Oh well, it will keep the crowds away.

I'm sorry, these people would never want a quality of life equal to ours. Not only could they not imagine it, they probably would despise it as if they could. Sorry about that. Don't get me wrong. I'm just being critical here. I love America. I'm a good consumer. I'm lucky.

Thankfully for who? For consumers of their cheap plastic crap, so that Wallmart can stay afloat? Let face it, we here enjoy lower prices at the expense of others. Lets hope they don't figure that out! The moment they start demanding a quality of life equal to ours (maybe in the form of a union) we are screwed. So i guess its kill or be killed. Long live cheap plastic crap! In the case of "the government keeping the workers pay down" isn't starting a union akin to a democratic revolution? Would that not be a good thing? Are these governments just doing it because its profitable to keep the man down? Oh...it is our friend, the invisible hand.

I don't know how accurate this data is, but fuel for fire http://www.city-data.com/top2/toplists2.html

its ok...they are both consentual adults and neither lives in the state of Texas.

people live in the conditions that have been put upon them...by market forces. sometimes to change those conditions the market alone simply does not work. i have no idea what you're talking about with your "first world" talk. i'm talking about 3rd world people forming their own unions, and how it could be a good thing for them. Sure, maybe they are happy to have their job that pays them a dollar a day or whatever, but if the market can take it, and they can force the issue by unionizing, why shouldn't they get say...a whole 10 times as much??? Or maybe you think that is just what they deserve for not being good capitalists.

Tomorrow night.

well you can pick and choose were the invisible hand has been efficient if you want. unions are not perfect (my dad belonged to one and he bitched about it all the time), but they do serve their purpose. and what are the "evils" of unions? they appear most "evil" in places where they become corrupt and bureaucratic. when they become an organization like the mafia, in a parasitic fashion you describe...but that is just one side of the coin. historically unions have done a huge amount for workers. sure you wouldn't like to roll back all the changes unions have brought to workers. conversely employers can be much more "evil" and get away with it. the market has a STRONG demand (i.e. guiding invisible hand) for "cheap, I don't care how or where it came from" products. Look at the Gap, Nike, etc. Of course those people are overseas, so who cares, right? Should we wait around for people to stop buying that stuff because of the "injustice", or should they unionize? Which would do more damage to their well being? Hard to say if you ask me. But is would seem that unionizing has historically worked during certain periods, only to became evil later during more affluent periods. i'm making all this stuff up.

THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN