Rad

Sobo, I once had a guide, perhaps now in the basement, to the Owens River Gorge that defined pinkpointing, redpointing, brownpointing, and at least two other colors. One may have corresponded to dogging on lead (hanging/falling and then continuing to the top). Not sure. You're not missing much by ignoring all of these. R

Pinkpointing trad routes, or even sport routes, seems pretty silly to me too, but if that makes people happy who cares? I might imagine there are routes truly at one's limit that one can pinkpoint but not redpoint.

Flash is what I did on the Sword after seeing pics from every possible angle and reading every TR I could find. Certainly not an onsight. Right.

Perhaps I misunderstood and Rob was talking about redpointing (placing all gear/draws on lead) versus pinkpointing (clipping pre-placed draws/gear). We can probably all agree that leading onsight > flashing > redpointing > pinkpointing > hangdogging on lead > TRing > couch surfing > spraying on CC.

Yes, Rob, easy for you to say. As you may know, some highly respected climbs are hard headpoints in the UK. These routes are typically toproped ad infinitum prior to R/X lead attempts. Is that cheating too? Many threads have dealt with FA style before. It often boils down to whether the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. In other words, is the style and experience of the first ascent (the one) more important than the final product that subsequent climbers (the many) will experience? In one example, bolts placed from hooks may not be in places that make sense for free climbing (e.g. near a clipping stance and protecting the right part of the climb). Cleaning loose rock off a route from hook placements sounds really scary! Besides, hooks are aid, so perhaps you should drill bolts by hand from stances. It's a fine goal to make a first ascent onsight ground up while placing all protection from stances, with an eye to developing a classic route worth repeating. I agree with you that ground-up is better provided it does not compromise the resulting product. We look forward to seeing your FA TRs.

Quite an opus. Thanks for posting. Why not try to get it published?

I think Matt's point is also that Fox is a partisan news source. Most other media outlets talked about how McClellan totally slammed Bush, Rove, Cheney, Rice, and others.

There is no denying people gain a sense of authorship over routes, for better or worse, and that authorship may be a small and vain attempt at immortality. Nonetheless, that pride in one's work is often what drives people to excellence and can lead to some great achievements. The flip side is that people who don't care about their works are probably doomed to mediocrity. In my view of humanity, these apply equally to climbing, relationships, careers, and essentially all aspects of life. "If your work isn't what you love then something isn't right" - David Byrne.

Rob, I don't think 'sport' route developers think they created the route. Of course the rock was there first, but someone had to have the vision that a route would go free, and then clean and protect it so that others can safely climb it. Creating great routes with fixed protection is a lot harder than slapping in some bolts. Choosing an aesthetic line is not easy. Just ask MattP. Fixed protection is vital to many classic routes. For example, without bolts on Merci me (or Cruel Shoes) the Grand Wall, with its stellar trad pitches, would not be climbable for people unwilling to free solo 5.8 500ft off the deck. For that matter, the bolt ladders that most aid past are also critical on that climb. If you only want to climb cracks that's fine, but you're limiting yourself to a pretty narrow set of climbing experiences.

See OPP lyrics above...

Bill has spoken. Post some some pics of your 'almost' ascent so we can see if the route is worth all this bother.

No change in 2 years sounds like it went from 'project' to 'open project'. One crazy idea: climb it and don't tell anyone about it.

Thanks. Even if it's not five star it still looks well worth doing.

Nice TR. Seems to echo what others have said: that the first few pitches are sweet and the rest is fairly forgettable. Would you agree?

I used to have something like that Estwing thing when I was a kid. A geologist neighbor gave it to me. Great for smashing open rocks. One winter I used it to chip two inches of ice off our driveway and it worked great, except it nearly destroyed the driveway in the process. Dad was none too happy. Thankfully we lived in a rental at the time. I like the standard weeder for PNW cleaning. And yes, the nylon brush is much better, mainly because it lasts much longer and doesn't litter the area with metal splinters/hairs. I'd also second Alpinfox's comment that mask, goggles, and leather gloves are vital. I've inhaled a good bit of dirt and lichen and it is no fun at all.

We definitely will. I did, but at least it was small.

It takes maturity to make that decision despite having invested so much in this passage. Like our parents said ages ago, do your best. No one can ask for more.

Hmm. I don't remember that bolt, but then I'm old and senile and it's already been three days... The lower piece is missing in the second shot. Perhaps the lower shot was the first attempt and the upper shot was taken after the leader placed a second piece before going back up for another attempt. Where were these shots taken from? Looks like well above the belay.

BTW, the Sail Flake and Flats pitches are great too. Somehow we didn't take pics on those. It was getting hot and we wanted to get off and into the shade.

SP goes from thin hands to 4" and then to a chimney. It is really very friendly, with enough constrictions for great jamming and a nice edge to lieback. It's hard to imagine a more moderate way to free climb a vertical wall.

Trip: Squamish - Grand Wall Date: 5/18/2008 Trip Report: A great trip except for some shenanigans at the border. It was baking hot and humid on Saturday the 17th. A dozen parties stacked up on the Grand Wall, slowly cooking like hotdogs at the Quickie Mart. We were glad not to be one of them. Sunday the 18th was much cooler. We went up the Grand Wall, with a botched attempt at Cruel Shoes as noted below. Except for one other party that rapped off from the base of the Split Pillar, we didn't see anyone else on the upper wall the whole day. Morning clouds burned off as we finished the Split Pillar, and it was nice and sunny in the afternoon. Twas a trip to remember. Thanks Blake! Blake leading The Flake p1. Trickier than expected. Blake accidentally leaving Cruel Shoes for some 11d. We backed off, rapping back to go up Apron Strings because we couldn't find Cruel Shoes. Now we know where we should have gone... Apron Strings p2. At the base of Merci Me. Merci Me p2. Blake on the traverse to the Split Pillar. Exposure at the base of the Split Pillar. Split Pillar start. Split Pillar school of jamming. Upper Split Pillar. The lower Sword. The upper Sword. Exposure at the top of the bolt ladder. Blake leads Perry's Lieback with no hangs. Bellygood ledge. Gear Notes: Doubles in the 0.5 - #3 camalot range, though the second #3 is not really needed if you're willing to run out the fist section of the Split Pillar. We didn't bring or need the #4. Approach Notes: 10 minutes from the campground.

Matt, I have climbed with you and hope to again. I think we are on the same page here. I suspect that the examples of bad habits you and I provided are just proxies for us to determine whether our partner has two key things: sound judgment (not just from a book), and habits that prevent what I call the 'fatal moment of inattention'. Most accidents boil down to a failure of one or both of these things. When I tie in with a partner I am literally trusting that person with my life. Ask yourself if there is any other aspect of your life where you do that. I think that's pretty cool, and it's something that intensifies the bonds between climbers.

KK, glad to hear you are helping where you can. I agree with you that some people's 'training' is woefully inadequate. However, I feel that doesn't justify withholding potentially life-saving information from them. Quite the opposite. To add to Matt's comment, I have seen plenty of newbies who are VERY safe and responsible. I've also seen experienced climbers do things that I perceived to be irresponsible (brake hand off lead rope, setting up squirrely anchors, unclipping at belays on exposed multipitch routes etc). This latter group is more problematic than newbies IMHO. At least the newbies can plead ignorance and may change their bad habits. The 'experts' are generally less likely to acknowledge mistakes and change their practices.

OK, so you really are superior. Congratulations. Don't you still have some responsibility to try, in some small ways, to help keep other people from being killed by their stupidity regardless of what their learning may or may not have been? Or, better yet, volunteer to mentor/teach newbies so they won't make these mistakes. I guess you could just do nothing and whine on the internet...