matt_m

pm sent

Not to be a pain but WHAT popular climbs are UP north gully? I know there's stuff at the very bottom (not even really in the gully) such as northern lights (popular may be a stretch since any hard 11d with a rep by rule isn't "popular") Everything I've heard about N. Gully was essentially "NEVER GO UP IT and at all costs avoid going down it!" Maybe the cleaner is giving us reason to go up it?

Props to Herr - proud ascent no doubt - but when you have "feet" that fit perfectly into the tiny crack AND don't get tired, something tells me you can't compare the two. Kinda like wheelchair records in marathons (faster!)

damn - Via Ferrata Pic didn't work - and i was all excited to see something new and original!

rock on - keep the index resurgence going!

Fix away - small trail and access improvements go a long way to helping spread impact and heighten the overall experience of the area. Try and make it long lasting so it remains useful for years to come.

chains when i went there to looks at it (in the rain) two ropes to get drown and a good brush wouldn't hurt - rock is clean but runoff had some debris on the rock too

interesting - looks like oakley used a bunch of different films footage. I know i saw stuff from level 1 productions and matchstick in there.

very good point - the pro form would skew things A LOT. My shopping habits varied significantly depending on if I was "in the industry" or not. In = try everything on and then prodeal it (since stores never carry a companies full line this often got me in a lot of stores searching for the item and more often than not - I bought some additional something while there.) When not in the industry all bets are off - 1) Finding who's got what I want local or online. 2) if hardgood and more than one place had it - buy from best instock price. 3) shoes, jackets etc - find and hope it's on sale. 4) Learned from a buddy to ALWAYS look through the sale racks at stores (Valhalla Pure esp) Got me a cloudveil jkt slightly used for like $75 once SWEET

classic! one of the best around - do the direct finish!

A SPORT route, by the definition accepted by almost all climbers today, is a route in which the risk of injury in a fall is greatly reduced (if not eliminated) by the presence of bolts whose spacing/frequency provided said adequate protection. Routes on the Apron (Squamish OR Yosemite) are bolted but falls of 50 ft or more are certainly possible. No one I've EVER met has called these sport climbs. IB, which I HAVE CLIMBED, has NUMEROUS pitches in which falls of 80 or more feet are possible, often on terrain where injury is certain. Additionally, the 3rd/4th class pitch of 450+ ft of loose climbing where a fall would be fatal should be considered. Given these facts, almost any climber would disagree that IB is a sport climb. Ignoring this and labeling it a sport climb just so it fits within your definition of "objectionable climbs" is not sound reasoning. It would be like saying bad language should be censored. "shoot" is a bad word. "shoot" should be censored even though most do not consider "shoot" to be bad. I disagree - Delicate Arch is in a National Park easily within view of a LARGE group of non-climbers. I'd bet almost no one OTHER THAN climbers have set eyes, close up, on the IB area of Mt Garfield. Yes it brought scrutiny on climbers but I'd argue it was MUCH more limited than Delicate arch and when problems arose, climbers addresses the parties concerns and the matter was settled amicably between all involved. I'd bet the general public never heard about IB or the "controversy". Delicate Arch made the local network news and involved a National Park and a major outdoor vendor. We're now over 3 years since it's debut and I've never heard mention of it from anyone BUT climbers, never seen in in a paper, television piece etc and the overwhelming presence online is in climbing forums like this. Again, what "private/govt/media" attention? It created a stir 3 years ago for a little while and then was settled and hasn't shown up since. The only place it's controversial anymore is on cc.com. More and more I conclude that cc.com DOES NOT represent the climbing community overall. It is a facet of it to be sure but the percentage of "non-online-climbers" far out weights the cyber-climbers. being somewhat a member of supertopo, cc.com and rc.com (among others) I noticed in my searches that the outspoken posters re: IB on all these sites were very limited and many times were THE SAME PEOPLE. Yes IB was a hot topic for a little while but it's 15 minutes have long since past. the only place it remains "controversial" is on cc.com. Haven't heard mention of it at the cliffs since '03 beyond the occasion TR. You also criticize the "climbing communities" inaction on IB stating it's devision resulted in paralysis. What is not addressed here is the very possible fact that the "don't chop" division was a much large piece of the divide than the "chop it" side. Yes there was devision - but equally? Re Bolt Wars: I think "bolt wars" generally occur for 2 reasons. 1) an area's climbing community is TRULY equally devided on the issue and struggles to find common ground with many parties on both sides action out. (common years ago during the sport climbing arrival but much less so today) 2) a minority group (or individual) acts out in opposition the the climbing majority (eg a rap bolter at the Gunks or an ardent traditionalist at Smith). Bottom line here is that the ONLY place IB seems to be controversial on any scale anymore is on this web site which is only a sampling of the whole PNW climbing community. Yes it provides good, healthy debate (why I still return) but more and more I realize there's a lot more to the PNW Climbing world than this or any climbing site (why I frequent them less and less). I'll continue to frequent this site to check on access (thanks JH for all the Beacon Stewardship) and TR's but checking the PNW climbing pulse? Nah....

True - I was pointing out the repetitive themes of this site. I would argue that 4 or 5 rungs of rebar (note how in the above picture the rungs would be nearly the same color as the rock at si) would provide ample fall protection while remaining low impact visually. certainly less impact than the concrete trail (smartly added to reduce erosion) further down the trail. I come from a Gunks background where clean ethics were extremely high. That said, the climbers and land managers also understood that well thought out trails, decent/approach routes including the occasional wood rung ladder or fixed hand line (lemon squeeze at the gunks, stuff in the 'dacks or NH - squamish even) kept overall impact lower (small intentional impact vs larger unintentional impact either erosion or in this case a rescue) Climbers (and all outdoor recreational users) have to recognize the "situation" of the area when debating impacts / ethics and what have you. SCW is not in the same "situation" as Little Si. I'd be right behind you protesting if someone suggested fixed lines down the SCW decent. The solution does not match the "situation". A good example of this in action would be at the Gunks where bolted rap stations (in a place where it was voted long ago to no longer use them) where installed to reduce impact. These same events play out in the hiking and biking world as well hence bridges and elevated walkways being built when needed. Just as in construction, remaining too rigid when put under stress will eventually lead to failure. The truly enlightened recreational user is one who can recognize a "situation" and create the best possible outcome for all, regardless of personal practices and beliefs.

Yeah - cause that's EXACTLY what it would look like. Gimme a break. The Via Ferrata angle is overworked, tired and needs to be put to bed. Hey - I know - next lets re-post the picture of the bolts with burgers on them. Moral of the story - accidents are accidents. Some are caused by stupidity (lowering off end of rope) others are certainly not.

It was Specifically requested that the persons name be kept off of cc.com.

org post deleted because, as usual, cc.com slipped into bickering about, well.... all the usual sh_t with all the usual suspects.

Post deleted by matt_m

I'd like to point out I respect JosephH and all the work he's done as a steward for the Beacon rock area. That said I think your above statement points out that in this case, the "community" as a "whole" does not view the route as vehemently as you do and through its lack of action, showed well thought out restraint (as do you in your lack of action). People may love or hate IB but let's reserve the tag "abortion" for things that truly and undoubtedly are. Bolts next to an indian creek crack or chipping for example. I've also learned in my years on the "boards" (rc.com, supertopo, cc.com etc) that as much as the sites and the people on them would want to believe otherwise, the "community" on here is a VERY SMALL part of the true climbing world. Seriously, how many frequent posters are on here? 15? 25 MAYBE? Heck, I've see 10x that many climbers on a fall weekend in the Gunks. Being climbers and internet users does not make us elected representatives - it just makes us climbers who can take the beer/campfire discussions/debates to work with us. At the end of the day we may be able learn and discuss more things but that doesn't mean we have carte blanche to act on them. I now go to these sites mainly to 1) check on access and conditions 2) see dru rant and wonder WHAT he does all day 3) on a VERY limited basis take part in the EVER REPEATING and RE-OCCURING debates climbers love to have

yawn - the route's there - I've climbed it, liked it and no it's not a "sport route". I don't think there should be a sticky - people who want to climb it should AT LEAST have to put in the effort to use the damn search function - there's plenty o' info when you use that.

They helpped with the laurel knob purchase and gave over $2.5 million back into various outdoor projects etc. What does REI have to do with fast food and obesity? LAst I looked there weren't a lot of fat people storming REI - quite the opposite really. how does REI getting "bigger" influence a persons car choice? REI sells bikes - not cars. cell phone plans are cheaper than a land line - what does either of these have to do with REI and product selection? Max is 60GB. You can put anything from NPR to Creed to Books on Tape to the latest Nelly on one. How do YOU know what people are listening too? MY 50+ year old mother loves hers for book club stuff. She wouldn't know prefabcorprock if she wanted too. Stop waxing nostalgic "I hate the big box" A lot more people want/need jackets than they do cams. Eddie Bauer and Lands End? Come on - they're not even close.

Ability to fall under control and a willingness to fall. A lot of "leaders" who don't fall will get into some trouble when they try to hang on for dear life, often resulting in a peeling tumble fall. Not good

pretty sure I've seen that in LCC and TM books. MAybe not though

But will the uniforms be softshell? crap - spelling fixed. Dru, proving once again he has more time than I (or most!)

Re: Catalog - how often does climbing gear change that devoting costly pages to a mail catalog is needed? Seriously the Mt Gear Catalog NEVER really changes (other than nice pictures) Why spend the $$ on such a small audience? Climber's will find the gear without a mail order print mag (which are much better at advertising seasonal item changes, yes just like EB, crate and barrel etc) Re Shitty Apparel Store: Hey, you may not like the fashion but all the people who continue to help REI hit record sales sure seem to. Apparel pays the bills. Climbing gear isn't a money maker - never was. Again, climbers are pretty smart (as a whole) and can figure out gear on their own. I've had poor service at all the small "true gear shops" in town too. REI people can be uninformed but I'll take that over arrogant or indifferent any day. Parking : South Lake isn't the same place it was even 5 years ago - Evidenced by the LARGE building developed across the street. It was no small secret that REIs parking could be poached FOR FREE all the time. (24 HR fitness would tell people to park there!) Problem solved... I shop all the local stores, REI, the net etc. Every option has positives and negatives - complaining that the outdoor market is growing and that the "core market user" is getting less focus is yelling into the wind. It's been going on for a decade or more. Not sure why this gets peoples nighty in a knot - we were ALWAYS a fringe group

I know Dru is baiting but I can't take it!!!! Muusstt Post... Cheater Stick = stick used to clip fix aid gear out of reach thus "skipping" the hard aid. Clip Stick = stick used to clip rope to first bolt where it's 1) needed because of bad landing 2) deemed to high/scary for climber* * = debate can rage on this of course one man's death fall is another's runnout. There are places where the FA MEANT the bolt to be clipped though... flame on edit to add clips sticks are fine with me in sport areas but I'll laugh at you if you show up at the apron with a 20 foot pole

Whitehorse is fantastic - and if you get tired of the slabs just keep walking around to the wonder wall area - Proud stuff over there too. In fact Whitehorse/Cahtedral is one of my favorite areas PERIOD