Dane

Dude, your golden years are already here.....hope you enjoy them.

Ok....my rope is too short, too old and too fat, at least now I know why I'll die soon That was kinda pretty scary, glad I'm still almost 6'1". Funny thing about those "150' days". We seemingly carried less gear, used the same belay stances and had at least as much fun as the guys climbing today on a 70m rope. I just hate actually having to coil or carry a 70m rope

For the genius among us. A 210 feet of rope can be measured many ways but is still only 210 feet. Things that can be top roped with a single 210 foot rope can be lead with a 105 foot rope. So the majority of the time leading on a 70m rope at Index you'll have 60 feet of it sitting at the belay never to be used. I can imagine there are lines at Index where you can/might bypass a perfectly good belay ledge like combining the two pitches of Thin Fingers. Might even be a line or two set up specifically for 70m ropes. But they aren't the norm. So please don't tell me you need a 70m rope at Index

Hey Kevin, no I haven't used it outside. I may get a chance to shortly if it happens I'll get back to you on that. Added the 2nd grip to my Quarks two winter's ago but never ended up using them again after I got the Nomics. Sold my Cobras and wanted to have a grip/trigger with a higher position than the Cobra allowed, was the original idea. May be John will describe what he is doing and how he is using the Cobra grip. But this is what surprised me and how I am using the second grip on the Nomic and how I intend to use the added grip on the Quark. Only wish I had more surface area on the 2nd, bolt on grip for my Quarks. I use the second grip and get my feet higher as John described. I also use the second grip and swing from there like using a shorter tool. Works good on moderate ground as a "dagger" that way and on difficult stuff to get your feet higher as a second grip. The use that surprised me on difficult ice was matching on the second grip and hanging my other tool on a body holster and pulling up with both hands on one tool. It is a technique I ended up using a lot on the Nomics. With my now weenie arms it saved me an incredible amount of energy on hard climbs by eliminationg numerious tool placements. I think grip matching and 2nd grip use is as revolutionary as A frame ice climbing was over X frame and may even more so in the amount of energy saved. Obviously you have to climb leashless to use either technique, matching or high grip, to its fullest. An after thought: With all the new gear and techniques everyone wonders what kind of gear to start with or stay with and get better on. Beginners and old hands...everyone wonders. Good climbers can climb on anything...most any old club with a nail through it can get you up some ice. But some gear, used wisely, can make you a better climber. All it takes is money Last winter I saw students who had never climbed before TRing on M5/M6 and vertical ice. After a full week of nothing but ice and mixed the first choice of tools for those students was the Nomic. And they had the choice of ALL the modern tools at the school they were attending. Again not beating the Petzl or Nomic drum here...just saying the design ideas behind the Nomic are stellar and there will be more to come by all the major manufactures. I don't think the Quark, Nomic or BD Cobra or Fusion are the end all in tool design. It is obvious more can easily be done.

Done the DH/LA, PA and TF many time and never used a 70m rope.

Ebay is your best bet. But you'll be hard pressed to get $250 for m anything but a Chouinard which isn't all that vintage. Prestine axe to the right guy? Mid '40s might help as well as that is vintage compared to '70s axes. Rick Wilcox would be as good of source as you'll find.

Having climbed a long time with those wooden handled antiques...just a heads up....the best tools/gear/clothing out there now ARE a good substitute for old school grit, general toughness and technique. The grades continue to climb. Here is 40 years of direct linage in ice tools... more here. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/876266/1 There are others here that can add more to the discussion. Hopefully they will. But since you brought it up I'll continue. Curved tools (Chouinard) allowed some pretty serious/steep ice climbing to be done. Generally by exceptionally fit and experienced and most of all BOLD climbers. Ice screws were slow in following the ability of the tools so ice climbs were generally ran out. Hooking tools, the first McInnes' Terrodacty, made extreme ice and mixed climbing possible. Within the last 10 years the newest ice screws/hooks/screamers have caught up with the tools. Ice climbing can now be quickly and safely protected. But I can tell you from personal experience Grade 6 ice now is a lot easier...and I do mean a LOT and a great deal safer now than it was with even the past generation's tools and gear. More to the point and the subject at hand. Four different kinds of ice tools these days. #1 Shaft with no support needs a leash #2 Shaft with some support and needs a leash #3 Shaft with support and doesn't require a leash #4 shaft, grip/grips are ergonomically designed to support the climber leashless but may be limiting on easier ground. #3 will generally have a high clearence shaft and be specifically designed to climb leashless on. While maybe not very noticable on moderate terrain #3 will make hard technical climbing much easier physically. #4 even more so. #1 and #2 can not be easily modified to offer the support of #3 and #3 can not be easily modifided to offer the support #4. Second grip? I never thought the 2nd grip would be something I would use till I was forced to by difficult climbing while on Nomics. Now I would prefer not to climb with out a 2nd grip. One of my complaints on the BD Cobra was the second grip was designed to be used as a trigger or a upper grip. That (not being big enough imo for the upper grip support) and it's limited placement on the shaft made it worthless for my own use. One of the reasons I sold my Cobras. Others, climbing harder than me, obviously like the Cobra and like the design.

Thanks, not so much on the top ropes, but all things I have done with a 50m rope or two... I see the "need" if you want to use one rope and/or TR. Which really means "everything" at Index can be done with a 150' rope or two easily.

Sobo mentions a couple of incidents were a helmet would have helped. But worth noting there were two of us on Castle that day and neither of us wore helmets Shit went bad that day but it had nothing to do with wearing or not wearing a helmet. Helmet might well have prevented some injury but not climbing would have negated any injury. "Biking, kayaking, skateboarding, football... they've all figured it out. If you don't cover your bean, your chances for death are significantly higher." No question if you are doing sports where the chance or in some case CERTAINTY of getting hit in the head a helmet is required. Things go wrong or even right while biking, kayaking, skateboarding or football and you'll need a helmet. Climbing not so much. Do you need a helmet on DC/Rainier? Do you need a helmet in Yosemite? Do you need a helmet ice climbing? How about Vantage? Leavenworth? Canadian Rockies or the Alps? The local climbing gym? Seems by some of the comments the GYM is a likely candidate for wearing a helmet. Shit happens climbing, right? Better put one on in the gym as well. See just how silly it all sounds now? Lot of climbing I do I use a helmet. A good percentage I don't. But I always make that judgement call and try not to climb in dangerious areas of known rock or ice fall. Newest helmets are awesome, easy to wear and forget about. But I also climb without a rope on occassion or climb together with a skilled partner. With a swami instead of a harness and without a a belay device when it occurs to me. Helmets are simply another part of the safety gear we use climbing. I seldom use every safety device I own on every climbing trip. I have no arguement with someone who wants to wear a helmet everytime they climb and none with the climber who picks and chooses when it is appropriate to wear a helmet. The most important part of that choice is to actually make a choice and KNOW why you choose to or choose not to wear a helmet. Hopefully you can live with that choice. I am more leery of climbing with a partner who ALWAYS wears a helmet but is unaware of the actual climbing dangers than the guy who chooses to wear a helmet when he knows it is dangerious or better yet chooses not to climb when it is dangerious....like Vantage on a early spring weekend. I get the felling that a good percentage here don't know when the risk is acceptable and when it is not. That is OK right up till we all have to wear helmets in the gym. Looking up? No question you can't dodge what you can't see. I have used just about every technique known to man to avoid being hit by rock and ice. Looking up, wearing a helmet, a protected stance and the best, not being there, all help at the right time and the right place.

Question? What routes are you doing that need a 70m rope at Index? Obviously stuff I have never been on. Cut ropes? Although no fan of really thin ropes for most climbs last I checked hadn't seen any documentation of anyone injured or killed from a rope being cut. Gene posted one. More? If so a link?

Good point Doug. On moderate terrain the Quark is the winner over the Nomic. And Yes, I should have been more specific and mentioned the caveat, use the right pick and head weight where required for the Nomics. Subtle changes to be sure but all can make a big difference on how Nomic climbs. I like the mixed pick with no head weight and use that where there will be little hard ice. I add the weights to the mixed pick if there is going to be lots of hard ice and mixed. For Canadian water ice the more delicate Cascade picks with the additional pick weights are really the sheeeetttz. Wrong pick combo and the Nomic can SUCK... Wasn't trying to make this a Petzl commercial. More trying to point out the opportunity to use our imaginations when it comes to tool choice and what is required. There are LOTS of exceptionally gifted climbers who prefer BD tools. The Cobra is one of the best.

Mark glad you joined in. "Nomics: I've been hearing folks rave about 'em for a while now; are they really that much better for ice and mixed than even Quarks?" I have both and offer this..Nomics are enough better than the Quark for difficult ground that it is easy to forgive them not having hammer/adze or the ability to plunge.

Hammers are easy to come by "owning a pair that lack hammers is going to seriously limit what you can and can't climb." A hammer is only required if you are placing and removing rock pins. How many novice ice climbers are doing that? Unlike a generation ago, modern ice screws obviously don't require the use of a hammer to place. I like an adze as well, but do I really need one? Not generally. Trigger? I tried them and found that correct placement on the shaft limited how I used the tool as a hammer when swinging in reverse grip. A well placed trigger for me was where I wanted my hand in the reverse hammer grip. Then I actually used a trigger on some hard ice and realised just how mch strain I was adding to my finger when pulling hard moves. Some info on tendon tears from using them out there as well. Then I decided I didn't really need a hammer! I did however find that a second grip on the tool was a huge benefit for matching and leashless. Choosing between a trigger and a second grip then became easy. I am not advocating the purchase of Nomics...althought they are seen in as many Canadian beginner's hands these days as the local hard men. Joke in Canada now is "Nomics are cheaters" and using them lowers the ice grade a full number. Nomic has 3 limitations...lack of hammer/adze and limited use plunging. But those "serious limitations" didn't keep Nomics off the North Butt of Hunter this spring or the North Face of the Droites and almost every water fall and mixed climb in Canada and Europe last winter If nothing else the Nomic is opening our imaginations.

Good one Marc, except you aren't old enough to remember A-Ha let alone the lingo! I think what is missed is "take" was coined from climbing a route that you really couldn't do. You made the clip and as you were falling off ya scream "TAKE" so the belayer would "take" as much slack out of the system as possible and catch you as high as possible at that particular bolt/ piece of pro and keep you from loosing ground. Then multiple times you call out "TAKE", as you wrench your sorry ass back up to the bolt, to then hang and prepare to repeat In the old days not one lead really hard shit you might fall off of. So we top roped everything you might pop off...and just yelled "TENSION". If you and your buddy had your stuff together no sound was ever heard. You just gave tension any time you were on a rope, needed or not. Made it look like you could climb! Having to yell "tension" was really just short hand for "UP ROPE dumb shit! And start paying attention so I don't die following or just as common "HELP ME", I'm going to fall off!" "Take" is sport climber's code for "falling", "help me" or "up rope, dumb shit, I'm about to fall off" . Happened when we switched from 150' top ropes to bolts every 6' feet.

Lots of info here but really five different topics I think. 1st is leash, leashless or a combo of the two 2nd is modified tools or buying a tool specifically designed for leashless. On high clearence tools I use the bottom grip support, and a mid shaft support for the bottom of my grip. I also like a fully insulated shaft. I don't use a "trigger support" for my index finger. From the little I tried seemed like it would be too easy to cause a serious tendon injury doing so. 3rd is how/or do you use umbilicals 4th is the ability of high clearence and leashless tools to plunge 5th was until recently, the accepted requirement of hammer and adze. My requirements fwiw? First and formost pick reliability, next leashless support, then the ability to plunge and a easily used umbilical attachment point. Tool weight has became an issue once I started to figure out just how light a tool could be and still climb well. A final thought on tools. If you don't have the additional support you require, any of the more modern tools that are specifically designed to offer additional hand support might be a better investment in time and your climbing than modifing your current tools. (to get the right support is it shaft angle and grip design combined) Also I think you'll find that the best of the "supported" tools will eliminate the need of leashes a lot faster than you might first think. My experience with Petzl tools since '02. I need leashes on a Quark without the grip support. I easily switched to leashless with the grip rest installed on the Quark. I then found out just how easy leashless climbing really can be on the next generation of tools..the Nomic. The more you look at the details in current tool design the more obvious it becomes that we can still go much further in design and application. Which is pretty amazing and very exciting!

Climbed a lot at Index on both the upper and lower wall...most of it on 165s and never felt like I needed anything longer.

Hammer/Adze? Still undecided and route specific. I have been pushing the conditions where I would normally demand a decent plunging tool and a hammer and adze. The 50 degree snow was a good example above. Soloed Shooting Gallery in snowed up conditions where a good plunging tool would have been awesome...but Quark worked just fine...better than expected actually. Found last winter that while I thought all three would be needed....none really were. Never would have believed it if someone had told me. Had to find out for myself and it was/is still quite a surprise. Going to try that trick again next week on something taking only Nomics (and trekking poles) seems silly on. I'll let you know how it turns out. Not the answer for everyone but I am continually shocked at where I see people climbing with a only Nomics. Those climbers and their climbs have encouraged me to push myself on tool selection. Good example, I have been unsuccessful on the north butt of Hunter twice. Until recently I would have never thought of only taking Nomics up there. Here is a guy (Colin's buddy) who actually climbed the buttress TWICE with only Nomics (umbilicals attached). So I guess an easy plunging tool wasn't really required Althought they lead in blocks still worth noting Colin was using a set of BD Cobras which will still do all three...plunge, hammer and adze. But for half that climbing and the decent...the three, P/H/A, weren't required Not the best illustrations may be but all places I bet you could normally use a plunged shaft but Nomics worked just fine. Steck on the McIntyre/Colton with conditions that might be a little hard for plunging a short tool. But the grip position he is using is the one I generally use now on my high clearence tools when I might well be plunging with a straight tool. And I generally find it MORE secure and a LOT less effort than a plunged tool. Pineapple Express '09...Neve can be a a toss up...pick or shaft. From Colin's blog again, ..obviously some snow here. Don't get me wrong though, Nomics (or Cobras among others) are good tools but I would rather have a tool that climbs as well as a Nomic (most don't) but is easy and secure to plunge with a "useful" hammer and adze as options.

Good to hear on both counts!! Congrads to the Bride and Groom!!!!! Live long and prosper

I've used Quarks with the grip rest a lot and Nomics some over the last few winters. As you might imagine the Quarks plunge better than the Nomics But either work well enough. Even in places you might not imagine they would. Have to admit if I really want a plunging tool for a particular climb (can't imagine what that climb would be these days) I prefer a fairly straight shafted axe. But seldom do I set one aside for a climb now. But this thing plunges about as good as anything out there. But then most anything will these days! By the time the grip rest becomes a hinderence to inserting the shaft there is generally enough stability in the snow pack to hold a pick. There was a time when I thought these would be terrible for plunging. Then Twight and crew used them on the Solvak route on Denali. Had my brain pried open to rethink alpine tools from that climb. Then you start seeing Nomics on all sorts of terrain where a hammer/adze and a tool that plunges would seem to be required but really isn't. Funny what you will do (or give up) to use a tool that climbs well. I don't find umbilicals a big issue plunging...if I did (haven't yet) I'd just unclip from the bottom of the axe. Nomics on 50 degee snow Shooting Gallery, Andromeda, Canada Jon Walsh's photos of Caroline George. North Gully, Mt. Hunter, AK http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2009/05/mt-hunter.html

I aint buying the rope drag bit as a reason for skinny ropes. I do believe as ropes have gotten longer, climbers have wanted lighter (skinnier) ropes for good reason. Standard rope lengths in the early '70s were 150'. By the late '70s 165' or 50m were more common but certainly not the norm even by the early '90s. I've done a few .12s on bolts and many more trad .11s and a few 12s. Most if not all on 10.5mm or 11mm x 150 ropes with the odd 165'/50m rope thrown in. Want to drop weight? Either take less pro or cowboy up and buy some of the super light biners or both. While I have indeed bitched about the weight of the rope at the end of a pitch and the resulting rope drag, neither were a reason for failure. I might rethink that if i was using a 70m x 10.5mm Having climbed the last couple of seasons on super skinny and long ropes (60m & 70m) I am really concerned about the extra stretch that happens on the skinniest ropes. I also don't think that extra dynamic ability in the rope is a big issue on ice or bad pro when you have screamers/load limiters that will do much more for your safety and keeping gear in place. The extra rope stretch how ever can be dangerious as I saw catching a 30' fall on ice this winter. It was that extra 7 to 10 feet of stretch that caused the injury. I use a 10.5 or a 11m x 50m (but a 150' would work as well) for cragging. 7.8s twins on ice generally and a thin 9mm single for alpine. I still see no reason for a 70m rope out side of ice climbing unless you have some weird project/climb that actually has a 210' pitch that shouldn't/can't be broken into smaller sections. Few climbs that a 200+ rope will make the ascent faster. Although I can see times for a shorter than 150' rope. Not many here freeing things like the Salathe headwall at one go. CM: "How’s that monster crux pitch on the headwall?" Alex Honnold" "The link-up is exactly 200 ft. I lead it on a 60meter rope once and had to untie just to walk across to Long Ledge (the top of the headwall).....It has rest stances that I milked as long as I could. So it took a long time." My though is skinny and super long ropes are a great marketing program easily sold to guys that will never take advantage of them or more importantly never need to. Bottom line for Rad? Get some super light weight hardware, biners, harness and drop some body weight for your project. Rope is the last place I'd go looking for a weight advanatge.

I don't think anyone is questioning Alan's abilities, certainly not me. I think most of us are saying that you (anyone?) would be better served with adding a grip rest to both of your Aztars and climbing totally leashless. Umbilicals are another question. But they seem to have become the norm for hard alpine. The newest screws are incredibly fast to place FWIW. From the link John provided..dated 2/02/2007 Be interesting to hear what Marko is using now?

Alpine climbing is all about conditions. Recognizing that fact I have tried to put the three North ridges of Rainier into perspective from my own climbs. I found Curtis to be a rubble pile and thankfully short. Easy to get on and off of. Liberty always a long slog to get there. Surprisingly scary/difficult on the top. And easy enough but long up and over the mountain either down the Emmons or thorugh Paradise. Ptarmigan has always been an adventure. Beautiful walk in through Mowich lake, awesome moderate technical climbing in cold hard conditions late in the fall and fun trips traversing the mountain going out through Paradise. What say you for comparisons? Ratings are from Becky's guide and climber's comments on difficulties found on more recent ascents. Curtis Ridge: "climbing" starts around 10K. Breaks out on the snow fields up high at just past 12K. Line is funky, weaving in and around snow fields to avoid the terrible rock bands. Certainly nothing hard by modern standards in snowed up conditions if you take the easiest lines. M5 or harder if you start climbing rock. If you can call it rock? Climbing off the west side and onto the edge of Willis Wall makes it much easier. Best done with lots of snow and cold weather. Rock fall can be serious. We found the hardest climbing (which was the route finding) low on the ridge, below the "second step". Easy to get back on the Emmons for the descent. Bivy is typically around 10K or just a bit above. IV with some mixed/rock 2000' and a long walk to the summit. Liberty Ridge: "climbing" starts at the base of the ridge at just under 9000' getting to Thumb Rock at 10,700'. Thumb Rock is the typical bivy site. The crux seems to be turning the Black pyramid 12000k (serious rock fall hazard below it all the way to the Carbon) and getting past the bergshrund at 13.5k. It has been skied and not unusual for people to decend Liberty in decent conditions. Snow conditions up high after the BPO always worry me. Obviously the longest climb of the three ridges but most will climb togetehr or unroped to the bivy at 10,700. III (IV if icy) 50 degree snow or ice 4000' (3000?) But tops out on a summit. Ptarmigan: climbing starts at 10,000' and a great bivy site. The crux will be how you get around the last rock buttress at 12,000 and the final ice cliff to gain Liberty Cap Glacier at 12,500. The 2500' of technical terrain can be as steep as 55/60 degree snow and ice but most of it is below 50. Mixed or rock if you choose the west side gully exits. III or IV 55 degree snow or ice / mixed. Rock fall can be a problem if it gets warm. (Personally I think this is the steepest ridge line of climbing) 2500' and a good walk to any summit of Rainier. As a added note, Thermogenisis, between Willis Wall and Libery Ridge, in good conditions, is also worth of inclusion. Disregarding the obvious additional objective danger down low and climbing in Liberty's slide path on the entire route. With no ridge bivy it is more elevation gain in one day and a bit mindless for kicking steps. 3500' My vote as the "best" route would be Ptarmigan. Consistantly steep climbing. The technical crux up high. With a reasonable level of objective hazard in good conditions and the most beautiful and may be the shortest approach (least effort anyway) coming up through Spray Park from Mowich Lake.

The Quark grip rest can be made to fit many different tools. I use one, cut down, as a flipable rest on my Grivel Evo tools. Buy 3 and use the first one to figure it out incase you have to cut it up. With all respect to Alan but why would anyone want a half leashed, half leashless tool set up. Seems a BIG step back ward IMO. I think you'd be better served with a complete set of leashless.

Nicely done... Of the three north ridges I thought Ptarmigan was the best climb. Be fun though to do them all in the same month to make a better comparison. We did Liberty in late June, Curtis in mid July, Ptarmigan in early Oct. So not the best comparison for conditions.

Ya, never would have believed the conditions from this weekend on Ptarmigan by the amount of snow supposedly at Mowich lake.... Looks like it will be a quick season for the north side routes before the neve is gone.