Dane

That was fun. I'll hold out for the hut Thanks for playing!

Leashes and dual points will get you up 99.99% of the climbs out there. Done 99.99% of my own climbing with the similar rigs. Now I have a quiver of boots, tools and crampons...which is only wasteful if i don't use them all on occasion Hardest part these days is deciding what set of gear to take! From the original tone/choices of the poll I thought Marc wanted to know what we use "generally" on technical ICE. Glacier travel might well get a different answer and a different set of gear.

The gully gets cleaned on a regular basis all winter and builds a deeper and deeper snow pac. To be useful anchors would have to be put in very late in the summer or late fall, low on the sides of the gully. They would be buried most of the year. To set stuff up for full 55m raps and to be used as running belays in the lower gully about the only thing that would really work (and last) would be stainless 3/8" bolted anchors with chains. Done right it could be done fairly cleanly. Up high, fixed pins are going to be required to keep the run outs under 30 feet or so. I think we (Craig) used 8 pieces in two pitches with zip really for the intermediate belay. There were two bad fixed pins one on the first and one on the second pitch.

For the few that know me they'll get a laugh out of this after my stance on Dishman and retro bolting trad routes. One of the plans this winter is take a quick trip to Chamonix again and climb some alpine ice gullys with quick access from the trams and fixed rap decents. You can get a lot of climbing in within a short time frame with that kind access. So last week I got a chance to do the NE Coulior on Dragontail. Done Dragontail many times and enjoyed the entire trip every time. The NE Coulior in good ice conditions is a stellar climb, every bit the equal of any moderate in Chamonix. Gotta admit the decent down Asgard in the dark was a little over the top for the amount of fun involved. So I started thinking, ya the route was really fine, but the decent sucked compared to the length of quality climbing. Would a set of rap anchors all the way out of the gully and fixed gear on the last two pitches make the climb more fun? Besides being quick you'd turn a 2 hr climb with a 6 hr r/t approach and decent into something that would be fun to do laps on. Crazy idea? Or just dumb? I already know I am getting old and lazy

OW, ya, sadly I hate to admit it but I am semi serious about a rap route and fixed gear on this climb. It was that much fun and worth multiple repeats while ion season if you could do it as a "chamonix sport" route. Can you image the typical traffic jams you'd have when the route is in on a weekend? But the ambiance of the lower gully and the excellent, moderate, mixed climbing on the headwall makes me want to run laps on this one...but only without having to stumble back down Asgard of course. I've done TD, the G/S, the Fin, Backbone and Serpentine (some many many times) and never thought I'd ever suggest such a thing as fixed gear and a rap route on Dragontail or climb the NE Coulior for that matter (@40 degrees and 5.7)

Hey I aint selling anything or having an arguement. Just my own observations If you are convinced otherwise from your own experience.....as a few of my buddies are, more power to you! For the sake of discussion. It is all those fancy shenanegans that can make even steep thick ice easier and if I am any example you can be less strong and climb better leashless. Not trying to diss your comments just found them in error for my own climbing. YMMV Funny though, I just recited the things I started noticing the end of the first week I forcing myself to climb leashless. After I posted I went and read C Haley's article. Some how I came to the exact same conclusions Like I said, if it wasn't easier...I wouldn't be doing it.

Nice! So is this going to be the first "euro" mixed climb in WA? I was thinking 55m dbl, chained, rap anchors down the entire gully from the top out on the rocks and fixed pro up the entire headwall Avoiding Asgard all together. Either way I am going back during the next hard freeze for another round of mixed goodness.

Buddy of mind was amazed I could switch to leashless so easily. He decided it was the hiatus of several years off that allowed me to open my mind and become a convert. I switched last season over a week's climbing in Canada after being on water fall ice since '73. Now on anything from the Central line on Weeping wall to moderate M climbs I watch my partners thrash away, obviously to me wasting energy. All the while I am leashless, enjoying life. Trust me if it weren't easier...by a good margin...I wouldn't be doing it. Yup, leashless (on a good tool set up) saves you energy over any leash system....no matter the terrain. It takes an old fat guy to really make that observation with some clarity. There are lots of advantages to leashless but let me address just steep ice. Your circulation will be better so you can climb in a thinner glove and stay warmer. A thinner glove will allow more energy savings holding the tool. You'll be much, much faster putting in screws, a biggie for most. You can switch hands on the tools or climb on just one tool, reach farther by matching on one tool, traverse and rest much, much easier. You can easily drop and shake a arm at any time delaying the arrival of a pump. All of that will make you a faster climber on vertical ice (or any ice)..again saving energy. Modern tools, designed as a leashless system, really are a big improvement over the very best leash system, for any style of climbing. I would never have believed it myself. And it took some effort to force myself through the change. But I'll never go back and I am climbing harder now than I ever have on ice and mixed because of it.

As part of a layering system they are warm enough for Rainier in winter, Denali in late May. Many guys are using them all winter in Canada...doesn't get much colder than the icefields. Although it isn't a "big" jacket, it isn't something I'd normally take on Rainier after April....as it is too warm imo, till Sept or so.

That is the one my partners and I have been using. Sorry about the name confusion. Easy to find on ebay, new, with tags. I bought one a year ago (last year's model, with little change) and one this summer (newest versions) for right at or under $100 each. Currently I think I saw two on bid. I did one on bid and the more expensive at a buy it now price. http://cgi.ebay.com/New-NEVER-WORN-Patagonia-Micro-Puff-Hooded-Jacket-L_W0QQitemZ300276956573QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_CSA_MC_Outerwear?hash=item300276956573&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Hummm.....never would have thought of layering Puff parkas. Great idea, thanks! Walking out the other day I found my partner's puff parka laying on the trail. Of course I picked it up and soldiered on. But a couple hrs later I was pleased to lay down and take a nap with my puff on and his wrappd around my legs. Worked well for a nap in 15 degree weather. While I have a heavier NF Baltoro (similar to a DAS) that I have used in Alaska...it does have to be really miserable out to be able to climb in it. At those temps I really don't want to be out. Never would have thought of it till Gene's comment but two puffs don't weight much and would be a better option, for several reasons I think. I also have a puff pull over that I may try in a cold weather layering system with a a parka. Puff pants would be a good addition for my winter system (great for a quick warm nap) just haven't done it yet.

Patagonia micro puff synthetic parka. Well under $100 new on feebay if you look around. Most of the guys I have climbed with in the last few years have been using one instead of a DAS...both in Canada in winter and here locally. Built to layer over your gear and a helmet I liked my first one so much I bought a second one size down to use in less extreme conditions. They actually are very light, pack small and offer a good level of insulation.

Ya, I did get in a bit of a hurry earlier today...easy to get excited about the conditions and such great efforts by all. Chephren was exceptional. Walsh has built up quite a tic list over the last few years, with obviously more yet to come! Jon Walsh sez: from Gadd's website

Shit it is still only Nov. and already among many many others, Nemisis, Replicant, Polar Circus, Borgeau Right, Murchinson and Wild Thing freed on Chephren 24 hrs car to car, all have been climbed. Amazing! Bunch of CC.com locals up there for the long weekend now. Be fun for us slackers to read the new trip reports.

We got talking about this kind of stuff last night at a dinner party. Hadn't seen some of the folks in months so the topic came up. Here is an observation. I got hurt because I wasn't really paying attention. Of course I could have put something in to keep my self from grounding out. Why I fell off shouldn't matter. Don't beat yourself up just do it better next time around. Really fast cars and sport bikes require the same sort of attention. You watch and focus (or should to stay safe) while climbing and need to on a sport bike that will hit 180mph. Not really things you can do casually, You need to be alert and hyper aware at all times. I forgot that and paid the price. Although not in great health now i am climbing again but I do pay close attention to every detail now....more that I ever have and I am more secure for it. And climbing just as hard. Best wishes for a full and short recovery! The best thing is you are still alive and can make a recovery. Not everyone gets that chance again

Like almost any alpine ice climb, late fall, if the conditions are right. I would bet this one could be almost dry on the crux pitches on some years during Oct and Nov. Different year and a wet fall, then a good freeze and clear weather might well give more ice and better snow conditions than we got. I'd have never believed the climbing was going to be as good as it was while looking up at the N. face of Dragontail when hiking over to the coulior! There was almost no snow walking in on the trail (less than a inch or just bare) or at the lake (less than 6" of fluff) The lake is just starting to get a tiny bit of ice on the far north end. Good two feet of snow on the top of Asgard out of the wind and more yet higher up on Dragontail. Here is that "money" shot that made we want to be there. This one from our climb taken from the belay on the first pitch of the crux corner system.

Forgot this. If you want the Nomic for pure water ice you'll want to ditch the Astro pic which is intentionally very blunt to last longer on mixed. It works great for the intended purpose. The Cascade pick however was designed for pure ice and works much better going in and coming out than the Astroeh. Good price on the tools right now at EMS www.ems.com

Once we get a couple of good storm cycles you'll want to check the approach times again. Right now there isn't much snow up high. That will change quickly and make some of these climbs a much bigger affair. Which is why most just drive north to Canada

I love mine. But I don't think they are the best pure water ice tool. IMO too light eevn with the head weights for pure, hard, cold, water ice. Awesome on softer alpine ice at lower angles. For hooking, mixed or a climber who can get a "light touch" on hard ice they are fantastic. I prefer a Quark with a bolted on upper handhold on water ice. You get swing weight and a hammer. But either can be used as a "dagger" on lower angle ice. Which I think is a huge advatage on easier slopes. Three big down sides to the Nomic, worth the advatages if on the right route...low swing weight, no spike when used as a cane and no hammer. I like mine on more difficult alpine climbs as well. Takes little to get use to them and easy to begin using them to huge disadvatage.

In May I took my first fall in over 38 years of climbing that resulted in serious injury. Taken hundreds of falls doing trad rock. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/807945/1 Yesterday and 7 months later I did my first serious climb since then. Although I followed the entire climb. Climb turned out harder than expected so I turned down the hard leads. Knowing the chances of me falling off were pretty high at teh moment, I'd never intentionally go on a climb I couldn't lead within my own comfort level. This one caught me by surprize, but isn't that part of why we climb? Luckily for me my partner was up to the task of baby sitting me. http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/853622/Re_TR_Dragontail_NE_Couloir_11#Post853622 While not nearly as strong or have the endurance that I use to have, I still have all the desire...on most days. I don't have the confidence I use to, but sometimes the desire is even more important that physical skills. Even confidence cna come back if you push yourself a bit. I am now a lot more cautious. A lot more cautious. Once you realise that a 30' ground fall could easily kill you, it can easily chnage your mind set. I am still dealing with the aftermath of that fall and will be for some time if not forever. I use to solo up to 5.11, WI5 and some big walls roped and unroped alpine and rock on a fairly regular basis right up to the week before I fell off. I doubt any of that will ever happen again...mostly because I doubt I'll ever be strong enough (mentally or physically) again. My point? The mental part you can get back close to where you ended if you want it badly enough. Hang in there, you'll get what ever you want back in time. It just takes time.

I imagine John was thinking about the original crux on Kitchener's GCC with his comment. He took a 40'er, 2500' up, a month ago when a block pulled. I certainly had that climb in mind....a bit longer and not quite like the solid limestone at Hafner I offered a Hafner grade comparison because many here have climbed there. GCC or some of the other Rockies N faces, which are all chossy, don't generally see that kind of traffic Just a bit more info.. Same gully in May. Note the lack of rock pitches at the entrance to the gully? Just shows you how much a route can change in a season. (or even between ascents when you are loosing much of the ice just by climbing on it)) No way in hell anyone is going to ski sections of the lower gully as it was on Tuesday. Take a look at John's photos again in some of the narrow sections. A number of places I could just get two boots side by side. Early spring after a good load of winter snow I suspect much of the gully actually is 40 degrees and fairly wide by comparison. Still not all of it is going to be 40 degrees and it would make an impressive ski from the upper rock band down. You fall here and you'll die bouncing off the sides of the gully but at least there is a good run out over the 'shrund, so you'll be easy to find

M5 Rockies choss and M5 granite are different animals John

The OR hoody looks to be a good thing. A follow up on the REI Ladro. I used mine yesterday on Dragon tail. First over a Patagoneia hoody and a supelight shell. Then later with all those layers (3) and a Puff Parka over the top. Great peice of climbing kit. Easy on and off at the belays and enough wind protection to make a big difference. Layers well with no binding or drag and the strech capabilty makes it a pleasure to climb in.

Ya, just love plunging steps past my belly button.....damn that was getting old and I was just following

Craig aka Alpine Monkey did an awseome job breaking trail up the gully (sadly no steps there from Sunday) and kindly leading every pitch. Gotta give him big atta boys! If you read Becky's guide this climb is rated a II 5.7 and 40 degrees. A 5.7 leader would be well out of his element on this one in similar late fall conditions. M4 or M5? The climbing was pretty sustained and poorly protected in the last, long, two pitches and harder than any M5 I have done at Hafner. Not all that much for pro, which most will want. Bring some thin pins. And a good bit steeper over all than the 40 degrees Becky has listed. It is a great climb however and more like something from Chamonix than what you'd expect to find in the NW. To be fair any mixed alpine route will change almost daily depending on conditions. If this thing had a foot of ice top to bottom it would be more fun than Polar Circus or Slipstream. Either way, short of the approach, it is a classic mixed climb for our area. As John's pictures showed the ambience any where in the gully is second to none. Big thanks to John as well for the great TR. If I hadn't seen the pics I'd never believed it worth the walk in. Looking down from any where on the Upper crux is awe inspring. Lower in the gully, on the best ice to be had on our ascent. Screws in these conditions were worthless. But amazingly you could generally get a good stick or a decent hook and good feet even on Darts when it wasn't snow plodding up to your crotch. Looking up the last steep snow slope at the final crux headwall. Climb finishes just left of the obvious pinnacle on the skyline. And the beginning of the two pitch crux at the end of the climb. Which just gets a whole lot thinner and harder the higher you go.