Dane

Yes sir, the LT/SV system is either the luckiest pair of jacket designs ever made by one company or one of the best designed sysems yet for the alpine. I wouldn't venture to even guess which is actually true.

My suggestion is don't get stuck on the details you don't understand or have no experience with. Use what YOU need. Not what I use. I take pictures for effect when testing gear. The "layered" picture is one of them. Of 7 pictured still only 3 layers going OVER the helmet. And one of them only to sleep in. Try to keep up will ya? It needs to be a *planned, intentional and FITTED system* to work most effeciently. There is no "theory" here. The system I use is proven in use by a lot of climbers up on the current garment technology. Lets do this in context AGAIN. The picture above was taken in the Midi Loo without a helmet prior to spending the night. I added a stocking hat and the last hooded layer to sleep in. The black, 60g hooded layer from Brooks Range is the last layer. And it has the hood sucked up with the draw cord because it is huge. And specifically why I used it there. No need to sleep in a helmet. I have been using a Petzl Meteor lately but it easily will go under every layer I require including everything in this picture. My Grivel will as well. I have a size 7.5 head. So it aint tiny by any means but typically fits in a normal sized helmet even with my base layer hoods but not usually with a hat on top of a R1 hood. SAG Lwt Merino wool hoody against my skin. Then a hooded R1. Both easily go under the helmet. The Atom LT Hoody easily goes over my helmet (60g). Then a Nano Puff pull over (60g). No hood, intentionally. Atom SV with a hood @ 100g is next. Below is a climbing photo well after dark still on technical ground at 12K feet, same trip. You can see my base layer, blue SAG Merino wool hoody, the red R1, the green Atom Lt and the orange Atom SV. The bright green colored Nano Puff mid layer over the Atom LT is missing in this photo. But it is intentionally not hooded anyway. At 12K feet in the dark and -30 temps those layers weren't enough for me unless I was working hard. But the hoods in this combo fit fine with a helmet. They aren't too small or too big. The simple 3 layer system including 3 hoods that will work in most any cold alpine climbing environment. (drop one of the base layers here to get 3) I've written about it many times and been using for several years now. Adding layers simply makes sense for weight and bulk in the pack and additional warmth as required. http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02/winter-layers.html Below is Colin's and Nil's layering systems with 60g garments and a R1 in them...being used on the summit of Denali without helmets. Nils has at least 5 layers on, Colin 3. I own only one insulated climbing jacket with a hood that won't fit over a helmet. It should be obvious when you are putting together a layered system you need to pay attention to the details. http://www.colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_06_01_archive.html

That is soooooo AWESOME!

I'm convinced that two of the most valuable skills you can give your kids for a enjoyable life are, multiple foreign languages and skiing. Both can open entirely different worlds and such different cultures for you, oh so easily.

"they own dynafit" and more..much more. As the sales numbers indication, Salewa is getting bigger and doing a good job while they are at it I think. WC was a surprise though for me.

For a fellow Ergo user in the alpine, almost anything is possible. Check your messages

Thanks for the feed back. All you need now is a better hammer

I thought so Nice choice. How is the green pack working out?

Nice work BP and the crew! May I ask what kind of orange colored tool is that hanging on your shoulder in the summit shot?

Thanks Jim, just want I need, another layer Hilarious...but he has never made the weight. Another 150g synthetic? If the insulation is good likely every bit as warm as the DAS @ 170g. Primaloft One Not like the synthetic/down thing doesn't get discussed elsewhere. Seemingly what the sponsors give you is what you use. I'm not complaining mind you since I get some great ideas from Bjørn-Eivind, Colin and Colin's other partners of late. Colin's photos below are from May '09/'10 and 2011. From that info I only fully adopted the idea of multiple lwt Primaloft layers in winter of 2010/11. But I have been using the 60g layer since 08/09 so I was an easy convert. All the photos are linked from Colin's web site. Call it a free Patagonia/Narrona ad for this use. http://www.colinhaley.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html Summit of Hunter..twice in 3 days. http://www.colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_06_01_archive.html summit of Denali on this one And a Denali summit again in those dinky little 60g Nanos I like so much. Colin just below the summit while soloing the Cassin in a 60g Primaloft layer @ 10oz per layer, and what looks to be a Houdini and a R1 with a cap under that hood. May be I missed something in there. It is no wonder he moves fast! Bjørn-Eivind in the down Narrona Trollveggen @ 37.5oz on the same solo with Colin, but a bit lower, at 17K on the Cassin. http://www.colinhaley.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html Obviously none of these guys are noobs or making "weird" choices by today's standards. Look around..open your mind. Work with what your skills and experience tells you will work for you.

Jon, I have not. Lots of good gear/jackets we haven't mentioned. This is my poster boy look for layering that Messner mentions. That was the first night we spent stuck on top of the Midi during one of the biggest storms of last winter. Only us, a few guides and the Mtn Police trying to take advantage of a short weather window still in the mtns when the storm broke. Temps dropped to -30C. Think goodness we weren't outside. Life would have been grim indeed. The Midi loo..were I like to test cold weather clothing:) Of the four layers of synthetic, top down, 60/100/60 and 60. I climbed much of that day in 60g/60g with R1 hoody under them on the steep technical terrain. As the wind came up and the snow started blowing around I added the 100g SV. Not warm enough on the long belays but too warm to climb fast in leading or seconding. I did how ever zip up when the sun fully disappeared. The climbing starts out with a steep mixed gully. Two pitches of mixed later the climb opens up to a this nice wide gully for 250m and finally finishes with 6 more moderate mixed pitches. A bit harder but a lot like Pineapple Express locally just more of it and at 12K feet and a easy dow hill approach. Obviously nothing cutting edge or very long but a fun climb to get on for the day. The final 60g layer made the night bearable in the Loo. But no picknick either, just bearable. Would an assortment of only Down garments have worked on that particular climb? Sure. As Messner again noted it is worth pointing out what goes under the outer insulation layer it just as important as the insulation layer/s. But of the Down I own (which is a few) I can't think of any Down combo that would have worked as well. one of these for more comparable warmth and less versitility may be: Eddie Bauer XV 38.5oz / 1091g Arcteryx Duelly 28oz / 794g Narrona Trollveggen 37.5oz / 1063g Or this combo: Arcteryx Atom Hoody SV 19.0 oz / 538g Arcteryx Atom lt Hoody large 14.4oz / 429g I also really like the Duelly/Atom Lt combo if it is cold enough and a long wasys from town. I had the choice and thought the Duelly or any really big jacket (down or syn) was out of place here. No question even I thought 4 was a lot of layers but it was easy enough in reality for weight and bulk in my pack. No question it opened my mind to other options. I got to do this climb twice in similar conditions only days apart and both my partners finished the climb in only 60g Atom LTs. They added heavier parkas...a SV and a Tango..for the night out. And did seem to sleep like babies

Great pictures..."freakin' cold day ". Man that one looks REALLY cold! Back to the original poster's question. No where was Alaska mentioned. Nor was it addressed by me. By the question I'd assume the OP wasn't going to be on the S. Face of Aconcagua or any other technical route. His comment on the Emmonds supported that. I've done 8 trips to the Alaska range. For time spent (45+ weeks) almost a full year on the glaciers there. Half of those trips included the summit on Denali. All but one were originally to more technical objectives first but not very successful. Trivial compared to some posting here. I've taken down jackets to Alaska twice. A synthetic bag once. Here is an open bivy using both, 4000' off the deck.. We did three that trip. Not the first or the last with that or other combos. But never "slept like a baby" on any of them. But not taken either there since '80. Dated technology imo for what I was trying to do. None of my partners or myself have had a cold injury...on any mtn using synthetics. Never felt it was dangerious but then may be I am simply a noob and those experiences don't mean anything. Maybe!? Would I take Down again? Maybe. There are some pretty amazing synthetic stand alones available these days, DAS, Duelly, Tango, PhD and SV among others. Specific combos offer even more choices. And some nice Down as well, EB XV, the Naronna's. But back once more to the OP's question. His choice of a Narrona Lyngen is a pretty astute pick imo for his listed goals. It wouldn't be my first choice for the same goals as I already mentioned. (but it is a jacket I really like and use myself) Polish route on Colfax n Feb '10. I still think the LT/SV is a better *combo* for the mtns the OP listed, having summited on 3 of the 4. And just as important what I assumed was the Op's xperience level to be. I think he'd get more use out of my suggestion for his stated goals. But it is the Internet...everyone gets an opinion. My suggestion is just that, my opinion. "All" this talk of Alaska and the dangers there though has me laughing. The coldest I have ever been in the mtns was in the Alps last winter. Technical climbing just a 20 minute tram ride above Chamonix and only minutes from a latte. Chricky I am such a noob maybe I should have actually zipped up that SV! In Alaska I probably would. Well may be I would. Down might truly be much safer in retrospect

Nice!

Grivel also makes a XL Salamander that should work. One color..steel gray but adjustable from 58-66 is the claim. I'm only a 61/7.5 and can easily do a regular Salamander with a hat and room to spare. I didn't find it too warm (didn't use it in summer though) but in comparison to a Meteor or Tracer it is heavy. Nice hard shell. Can't come close to wearing a BD Tracer though. Long oval head shape. Meteor III just barely fits.

Daniel's critic of his own climb actually, rewritten at his request for the blog. Here is more on the same subject which originally motivated Daniel's secondary comments. http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/staying-warm-generally-means-staying.html

Here is a little reality check. http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/daniel-harros-climb-stay-dry-to-stay.html Funny how I and my friends climb technical routes all winter and intentionally don't use down garments a vast majority of the time. While others use it on seemingly every trip they do. I'm lucky enough to have played at this game a while. Luckier yet getting exposed to a lot of gear over the years. I still pick what works best for me. Glad others can do the same.

Thanks Sig, glad you have enjoyed the blog. Fun facts you should know. Most everyone writing here regularly lives on the east side of the Cascades. 80+ is not uncommon here in the summer. I lived in Spokane on the east side where it was generally 90+ during June and July when I and clients would climb Rainier. Never wore or taken a down jacket on any of those climbs. Dozens of them. In fact I have suffered way more from the sun/heat on any summer Rainier climb than I ever have from the cold. The original poster asked about.."Orizaba, Kili, Aconcagua and Rainier." Up to about 18 or 20K feet I'd compare Aconcagua to Rainier or Orizaba. Above that a warm jacket is nice to have around. Which will be summit day or what time you spend at high camp. Kili is warmer yet, more like Mt Adams in late fall imo except it is higher. Which is why I originally suggested layering the more modern synthetic jackets available.

Hey happy here you have a Lyngen. Nice jacket. If you think the difference in a Lg and a XL should double the weight good on ya. I had to actually weigh smalls and meds ..a bunch of them to find out what the manufactures were using to get their specs. Doubling the weight of a jacket between what is advertised and what an XL is, also is "not fair". I might just call it deceptive advertizing actually. Not doing DC..that is cool. What route are you doing? Either way two nights out and 6 hrs from the summit to the parking lot no matter what the route is typical. The heavy weight belay jackets are over kill there unless it is mid winter. Your sewn through light weight Lyngen an exception. As I said, good luck!

Actually with just a little actual fact checking you'd find among other things that almost everyone on the plantet uses a small for their over all jacket weights. If they accurate at all even in a small size. The first part of that list was "heavy weight belay jackets. I seriously doubt there is a 7oz down jacket anywhere but in the hyper space of advertizing. I could be wrong though, but really doubt it. As the RAB Xenon jacket (60g Primaloft) in XL comes in at 11.8oz. The Rab Infinity Down jacket/sweater is 850 fill and 17.5 oz in an XL. Which isn't close to the 7.5 oz Rab says the Large size weights. Here are the factory spec and the actual weights. Eddie Bauer 43.8 oz, loft 5" (F#..factory lists 34.7 oz) Arcterxy Duelly 34.oz, loft 2.5" (F# 24oz) Narrona 31.8oz, loft 2.25" (F# 24oz) Patagonia 36.9oz, loft 1.5" (F# 26oz) Mtn Hardware 26.4 oz, loft 1.25 (F#19oz) Mammut 47.2 oz, loft 4.25" (F#40oz) Helious 35.2 oz, loft 3.25 (F#18oz) Front Point 40.8, loft 3.5" (F#30oz) MEC Tango, 31.7oz, loft 2" (F#28oz) RAB Infinity 17.5oz loft 2.5" (F#7.5oz) Some are a good ways off the advertised weights! Funny all this talk about Ranier though. On a guided climb of DC most will use a hut for the one over night. At the most even without the hut you'll spend 2 nights out. Down will work fine there with little risk to you the climbing party or the guides. As you are 4 to 6 hrs from summit to the parking lot. The Narrona Lygen is a rare exception on my list. That one I take climbing. Have fun!

Here is a list of ACTUAL weights of some of the better jackets available. Belay jackets Wild Things, Belay Jacket, 34oz pre 2010 / 963g Eddie Bauer XV 38.5oz / 1091g MEC Tango, 31.7oz / 898g Patagonia DAS (new) 36.9oz / 1046g Arcteryx Duelly 28oz / 794g Narrona Lyngen 26oz / 737g Narrona Trollveggen 37.5oz / 1063g Arcteryx Atom Hoody SV 19.0 oz / 538g Mountain Hardwear Compressor Hoody Primaloft 1 19.8oz / 561g Mammut Ambler 47.2oz / 1338g Lightly insulated jackets (belay sweaters) and shells EB Downlight Hoodie Pullover XL 15.4 oz / 455g EB Frontpoint XL 18.5oz / 547g Arcteryx Atom lt Hoody large 14.4oz / 429g Arcteryx Atom Hoody SV 19.0 oz / 562g Mountain Hardwear Compressor Hoody 19.8oz / 586g Arcteryx Gamma MX Hoody XL 24oz / 710g Arcteryx Squamish pullover XL 5.6oz -166g As an example Arcteryx Duelly 28oz / 794g Narrona Lyngen 26oz / 737g The Narrona is one of the best down jackets available these days with the addition of Primaloft. But the Dually is all Coreloft and a lot warmer for that 2oz in increased weight.

I whole heartily agree with every word Julian. But giving credit where it is also do, Patagonia was one of the first to product a jacket to match Twight's specs. as a belay jacket to go over the "action suit." Now there are lots of options and with Primeloft and Coreloft at the party better options than down a majority of the time for actual climbing. In the really cold conditions a down jacket will/might work for that. Over load what the down insulation can transport for moisture and you end up with a worthless piece of insulation.

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1053145 Giving full disclosure, the "great test" of down mentioned above was actually an over night inside a building while it snowed outside. Nothing wrong with down. But for actual climbing there are alternatives these days. There is a reason the Patagonia DAS is likley the most used belay jacket ever producted. Here are two comments on winter layering, down and synthetics included. http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3533 http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02/winter-layers.html

Saw elsewhere Theodore got the idea the preference for synthetic insulation is a NW thing (wet climate and all). It's not. The full combos being listed are way too warm for anything in the Cascades except mid winter climbs on the rare occasion. I've spent a good amount of time in Alaska in the spring, Canada and the Alps in the winter and used down and synthetics in both places. I think in general the synthetics are a better answer for anything but mild activity and/or really cold dry places. Even then I am using synthetics by choice these days everywhere.

Don't assume the preference for synthetics is a NW thing. I generally climb in the Canadian Rockies or the Alps in winter.

"down parka/jacket (with hood) now and bring all my other layers ( light base long sleeve, medium poly pro long sleeve, heavy fleece) and should be good to go." Pardon my response here..but down insulation (no matter the garment) is not a very good layering insulation. As it can not be kept dry in most sitautions and uses. It gets wet from the inside out when layered. I specifically listed Primaloft and Coreloft garments that do layer well. They will dry from body heat alone from the inside out. Adding Down to a pile garment of any sort is not an effecient layering system for a multitude of temeratures, climates and uses by comparison to what is currently available. I have and use a lot of down garments but their use is so limited in any of the current forms one could easily just discard them and generally be more comforatble in the synthetics now available. Sleeping bags are a totally different use of down.