cracked

The normal route is pretty easy, but stock up on GU, you can see the HUGE CORNICES that regularly calve off and kill climbers. Definitely not for the faint-hearted.

Who are you callin' a gumby, gumby?

How do we know that Dwayner knows what he's talking about?

Oops, my bad. It's good to know that we agree on certain points. There are certain parallels, though. Cheers:

So why are you arguing? Dwayner, you have not won. You will have won once everybody starts chopping bolts and climbing only trad, alpine and ice routes.

Muffy scares me.

Yes. Plus it's fun to argue about bolting. It's like arguing religion: nobody ever wins, yet nobody loses.

I don't have any Vinyloves, so I'm wondering: how does neoprene take forever to dry? It doesn't absorb water, so . Do they have a cotton liner or something?

How do you define 'advancement', then? Seems like the trad establishment was threatened by the abilities of the sport climbers' arrival 20 years ago, and it hasn't changed for some.

What the hell is "relativistic obfuscation"? I'm not going THAT fast. My point is, bagging bolts as environment altering is true, but avoiding greater issues. And now, I'm going to bed.

Even better, if you are staring at a computer screen all day, use the photo as a backdrop. And have a screensaver of photos. Of course, you get less done, but what the hell...

Bolted routes are great training for the mountains. Look at Voytek Kurtyka. He led sport 13c, soloed 13a (!), and look at at all the heinous stuff he did in the greater ranges. I know I would be significantly weaker on all routes (trad, mountains, etc) if it weren't for sport and gym climbing. (Slight argument shift) In general, comparing bolts to garbage is somewhat urealistic. Garbage is FAR uglier than bolts, especially if the bolts are camouflaged and used sparingly. Besides, fixed pins are also unsightly. If we don't want to disturb the environment, we shouldn't climb at all. Look at the damage done to the vegetation at the top of popular cliffs. Or scars on trees from pulling rap ropes. Or chalk, for that matter. How about scratches on rock from tools and crampons. Aren't pin scars ugly? No, we don't "need" bolted 5.14s, but do we "need" alpine routes, tool-scarred faces, pin-damaged cracks? How about chalk-smeared cracks? Hell, climbers themselves are visual blights. I would suggest that there are far more destructive behaviors than bolting. New trails every two years comes to mind. Or scree-running tracks, or damage to lichens from humans, or, for that matter, human waste in crevasses, forgotten or abandoned wands. I am not advcating gridbolting, excess is almost never the right path. However, focusing only on bolts, ignoring other considerations is living with blinders on. Anybody here read The Monkey Wrench Gang? How about blowing up some bridges instead of arguing about bolts? How about superhighways? We have seriously altered the evironment by EXISTING.

BD?

You win a golden piton and use it! You win a golden piton and can't go to the awards ceremony because the plane fare costs too much. You win a golden piton, scrape the gold off, and sell the gold for extra gas $$. Hmm, any others?

What is a "trask" anyways? Or, for that matter, a "Col. Von Spanker"? Where do people come up with these?

The gym rulz.

Oh, and SC, I tried to read the "article" about impreach-oops, impeachment. That is hilarious! Try impeaching Bush, we'll watch how far you'll get.

GW isn't responsible for the economy. Clinton bailed out right as the apex of the economy was attained. It sucks that you're unemployed, but don't blame GW for it. And although the fact that Clinton was getting BJs doesn't affect any of us, the fact that he lied about it in court DOES. He committed perjury. Anybody else would have been jailed, luckily, he was the president.

Gyms rock. Period.

Not all bolting is bad (go ahead, Dwayner, we're waiting for your response). In areas such as Smith, the accepted ethic for the area is having bolts. Overbolting is another issue. I feel that designated sport routes should not be dangerous, ie no groundfall potential, etc, but they should not be overbolted (Flagstone as a case in point, it so fucked up I don't like the place anymore). In wilderness we should minimize bolts, but their use is justifiable if they protect vegetation or other major impact on the environment. DO NOT bolt routes that have already been climbed in better style. Likewise, chopping well bolted, safe, popular sport routes is not much better, especially if they are located in an area that accepts bolted routes. More justifiable, but still generally unacceptable. Let the shit-slinging begin.

Post deleted by Lambone

I have no doubt that hard mixed climbing can be technically harder in a gymnastic sense than hard ice. The protection factor is separate. However, in the Golden Piton awards, I feel that they should give separate awards for mixed and pure ice (they don't, do they?). The two are really two different sports.