North_by_Northwest

I don't think anyone who cares about the environment at all can argue that the Enchantments don't need to be managed as a recreation area. The place would be destroyed if it wasn't for a system limiting use: the Enchantment Permit system. The point here is that the Enchantment Permit fees go to fund the management of the Enchantments. If you pay the fees you are not donating money to deforestation or asshole LE Rangers, you are donating money to restoring alpine meadows and protecting the Enchantments through permit management. Money from the Fee Demo goes to rec and wilderness projects and money from the Enchantment Permit system goes to the management of the Enchantments. More specifically, money from the Enchantment Permits goes to pay one wilderness ranger to be in the 'chants every weekend for the season, and to pay the administrative costs of the permit system (printing permits, etc.) Matt -Whether or not your moniker for the FS has any truth behind it has no relevance to the Fee Demo or the Enchantment Permits. The branches of the FS that deal with timber sales and such do not recieve money from the Fee Demo or the Enchantments Permits. True, the permit system is not the most convenient for climbers, but we can all work around it. There's lots that can be done in a day, and plenty of opportunity to get permits. Maybe those who don't want to get permits should wait until they can do it in a day. If FS people have had negative responses to your climbing goals it is probably because climbers are always trying to find exceptions to the rules and many feel they are better or cleaner than other users. When I worked I often got the cold shoulder from climbers who passed me on the trail, and usually I was just interested in what route they were doing, what conditions were, etc., not harassing. (For the record, I never gave out a ticket when I was a ranger, but dealt with a whole lot of shit from people.) The situation would be better if climbers were a little more friendly to the FS. Because being an FS LE Ranger is a cush job-no danger, just pissed off climbers. It attracts cops who can't cut it in the big city. Larry the Tool probably took his current position after being politely excused from the LAPD for beating innocent children or something. It would be nice to get a few good cops in the woods-there is one in Lworth, an old retired Scandanavian guy who's pretty decent to deal with. He doesn't work much though. I'm not trying to be self righteous Ray. I just find it really frustrating when people don't know the facts. I'm not saying we should all pay the parking fees, as I said: I don't always pay. I just get so sick of people saying they are protesting the Fee Demo for whatever reason-it's a weak argument. The fact is we just don't want to pay. And that's alright with me as long as we all know why we're not paying-it's an inconvenience and a pain-and not getting the facts wrong about where the money goes. I didn't mean to flame so much in my original post, I hold much respect for both Matt and Ray as climbers and as good company. I just find this situation really frustrating-I think there is a lot of misunderstanding everywhere.

To answer Hiromi's second question: if you are caught camping overnight you get a $100 fine. (Hint: if you are carrying a sleeping bag or pad, or just a really large pack you're going to get harassed.) You also might be walked out by the ranger. If you resist they will call the Law Enforcement Ranger and follow you until the Tools arrive to cuff you and drag you out.

Having worked in the Leavenworth and Lake Wenatchee Districts as a Wilderness Ranger, I have to call BULLSHIT on many of you: The helicopters and trash around the dams (Snow, Colchuck and Klonaqua esp.) are from the irrigation companies. Technically they own the land (forced buy from the FS I believe) they land on and build dams on. The rednecks who come in helos and bring chainsaws and other shit are coming against FS wilderness laws. They stay and camp for about a week, fishing illegally and cutting trees down every year. They also lie about when they plan on going so that the FS wilderness manager will not be able to catch them in the act. (It's total bullshit, I know, I was sent to catch them at Klonaqua once and missed them by a few days. I spent all day cleaning up the trash they left and even hauled out about 20lbs of cans and pots left behind.) The idea that climbers don't impact the Enchantments (or anywhere) as much as other users is false and conceited. "These monies along with my tax dollars would be more than enough to support the maintanance of the lands IF the overmanaged Deforest Service cuts its Beauracratic top heavy Managment and their penchant for rediculous spending. You and I both know this will never happen. Instead they will charge us until we can't afford to go. Maybe this is why I have a hard time respecting the overpaid Mountain Meter MAIDS!!!!" Don't confuse the different branches of the FS. Larry the Tool and his fatass Law Enforcement Ranger friends get big comfy SUVs with cameras and all that bullshit, but they are not the ones who are enforcing the Enchantment Permit system. Larry and friends (these guys truly are assholes, I had to work with them,) only enforce camping and parking. Whoever said they don't have the balls to enforce crime is right. Now, the Enchantment Permit system (subject of this thread) is enforced by the wilderness branch of the Leavenworth USFS. These guys are underpaid, underfunded and sent in to the backcountry with old shitty gear. Most are volunteers, those that get paid rarely make more than $10 (and they're on call 24 hrs a day when in the field). Most of the time these folks are working they are NOT HANDING OUT TICKETS or even patrolling for passes and permits, they are cleaning up other people's trash and shit, fixing trails and making FS lands look better. The wilderness people are only stiff on you when you break a rule in the Enchantments, and that's because everyone (like Weekend Climberz) has an excuse to be there when they shouldn't be. They've heard all kinds of bullshit from people who are sneaking into the Enchantments without permits and they aren't going to believe anybody anymore, they're just going to give tickets and go by the book. If you get caught you get caught. The purpose of the Enchantment fines is to deter people from breaking the rules: if the fine was soft everyone would be back there every weekend and the place would be too trashed to ever clean up. The money collected from the fees and fines goes to the Wilderness program, not the Law Enforcement Rangers. The money is used to keep our lands clean, not to harass people. The Fee Demo sucks and it's completely unfair to both backcountry users and the FS, but protesting it won't even make a dent in it: it's already permanently in place. The only result is that the FS programs that need the money the most and that do the most for your lands will be underfunded and desperate. (For the last two seasons the wilderness program has only had one vehicle, one full time year-round employee, and a pile of shitty worn out gear from the early 90s.) The fact is that you're not getting taxed twice for the land. The Gov took most of your taxes for the rec lands and sent them elsewhere. You're half-taxed. The other half will have to come from the fee Demo until the Gov gets staightened up. Those of you "protesting" the "DeForest Service" because you think they don't protect the forests, give too many tickets, tax you twice, don't wipe your ass, etc. need to get off your mountain of bullshit and just admit that you don't like paying the fees and getting parking passes because it's inconvenient and annoying. I don't like to pay it either, and I often times don't, but at least I don't lie to myself and others about why I don't pay.

What about those special trips to flavor country? It's only a skip and a hop from the Land of Sky Blue Waters...

PLEXUS: what the hell man? Reporters are supposed to smoke! They put the number of packs per day and what brands they smoke on their resumes. You could lose your job if you quit! No one takes a non-smoking reporter seriously, imagine if you show up for an interview and you don't smell like stale Marlboros and spilt coffee, those people are going to walk all over you man

Actually, my last job was as a Private Investigator. I don't think I'm gonna do that stuff anymore though.

They do that to troll for clients. It's a dating service. If you respond you're probably single and on the hunt, so they figure you'll be willing to pay for their service. I got one repeatedly and finally tracked down the source. Some of the messages get really creative and entertaining and can be worth reading if you get them once in a while.

I've heard that's a great ski when conditions are awesome but still avalanche - .I had to hike up there in 90 degree weather the summer before last, that was shitty - -. All I thought about was how great it would be to ride down while I was on the hot dusty descent.

Caveman your dog chewed on my coat-while I was wearing it! I don't know what he'd do to an unnattended pack Seriously I don't mind though, your dog kicks ass.

Nice one Iain.

Nice Robob!

No people at all? I know some people who were supposed to have been out there all weekend. I would have been there if it wasn't for this damn job. (Good thing I'll be unemployed again soon.) What'd ya climb Paul?

I guess it's just indicative of the kind of winter we've had-there should be avalanches not mudslides right now.

Sounds like you had a pretty Fun - experience. Is this the Rock Mtn. right across the highway from Stevens?

Lazenby was the worst Bond ever. Especially because his Bond character got married-totally wrong for a Bond. He should be erased from the James Bond record.

Dogs are better to have on the trail than horses on most occasions: do you ever see a horse rider stoop and scoop? And they go right on the trail everytime. What was said earlier about frontcountry, training, leashes, not in restricted areas goes too. Also NO BARKING. When people follow these rules I'm glad to see their dogs in the woods, its good for 'em. You're name is Steve Birds? Crazy. I work for a Steve Bird.

The military should get pay raises. If they make it a more rewarding career choice we will get better and smarter people with their fingers on the trigger. It can never hurt to have a little more intelligence behind a gun.

Yeah, I think it is Manning. I just remembered Spring first. What really bugs me is when he rants about banning ORVs from some areas in Eastern Washington. A lot of these areas are not good for hiking but are perfect for ORVs. Manning goes on and on about writing letters, the "four-wheeled terrors", etc. when hikers never go there to begin with! It's not like the areas are unusual or pristine in any way either-it's just miles and miles of broken basalt and scrub brush-the same stuff you find everywhere east of the cascades!

As far as user groups and lobbying goes, what I'd really like to see is some sensibility and compromise on both sides. Hikers and climbers need to realize that it can't all be pure wilderness and that many more people enjoy nature from the seat of a motorhome, ORV or 4X4. They need to be allow some areas to be open to ORVs and let it alone. ORV groups need to realize that there are many places where their sport is completely innappropriate (Yellowstone) and very destructive. They need to stop fighting for the right to use these areas because they should know they don't belong there. What it all comes down to really is a compromise between what people want to do in the outdoors and what is best for nature. If everyone decides to do what is best, in terms of their sport, for nature we can't go wrong. If we keep butting heads over relatively small issues and refusing to budge we are all just wasting time. Maybe this is what Sisu is trying to say with groups working together.

These annoying little parking fees are a direct result of funding cuts. The Gov chops what the FS, PS or whatever agency gets and the agency is forced to charge us in order to keep its head above water and continue providing services. True: as climbers or hikers we get very few services for what we pay for. This money goes to pay for the things we don't want to see: garbage removal, fixing washed out trails, eliminating unnecessary trails and destructive campsites, erasing the marks of errant ORV and horse users, etc. When you hike in an area that sees a lot of traffic but still looks beautiful (Enchantments) don't say: "Ohh, I paid $10 a day to be here and there isn't even a decent toilet." Instead notice how little the area has been impacted for the number of people that have visited it over the decades. It didn't always look this good, it has been worse in the past. Your fees go to keep it up. I hate the fees too and I would like to see an end to them, but it has to come from the top down. Protesting like Necro suggests will not lead to change. Voting is the only way to get the funds our lands need (with this many people out there they can't take care of themselves anymore.) As far as different user groups: there is a place for everything. I like to go four-wheeling just for the hell of it and I think there should be areas where that's acceptable. I also like to backpack and climb in places where there is no sign of motorized use. I would never think of going four-wheeling where I hike or climb, or hiking where I like to go four-wheeling; it wouldn't be appropriate. I think that areas like Yellowstone should be rid of snowmobilers: it's just not an acceptable place for motorized use. Some see it as taking lands that are theirs to use, but permission to snowmobile in Yellowstone was given long before snowmobiling was what it is today. The first people to sled there had no where near the power, noise and destructive capability that those who ride today do. Laws and restrictions need to adapt with technology. I agree there are some really arrogant and stuck-up climbers and hikers out there. The 100 Hikes books (Ira Spring) are full of the kind of snotty B.S. that I just can't stand. A lot of climbers do feel that they are above the law, even in relation to the environment. A prime example is the Mountaineers lobbying to place permanent bolt anchors in designated wilderness areas. That goes against the laws and principles of wilderness areas, but they support it because they think they are too important. At the same time they also publish Ira Spring's books.

What group of kids died? Is that the Zimbabwe train crash or is it something else? Too many bad things are happening.

Sounds like a great trip ML. Was it cold on Epinephrine or 70s like you said? I went to get on that route on my New Years trip and it was too wet and cold. We were almost snowed in and forced to stay in Lee Vining. I'm jealous.

UPDATED FEBRUARY 1, 2003 8:06 PM ET -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Toyota to Reach New Foriegn Market By AARON CLIPBOARD Staff reporter Toyota announced the release of a new four-wheel drive pickup truck late yesterday morning. The new truck, an offshoot of the popular Tacoma line, will only be available in the countries of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and North Korea. Toyota is marketing the new model as a response to the Afghan war, in which Toyota trucks were featured hauling troops and supplies for Al Queda forces. The new Terror ISM can carry as many as eight passengers in its military grade bed. The truck, dubbed the Terror will be available in two distinct packages. The IST package will include an I-Force V8 engine and a standard cab and truck bed. The ISM package is also based around the I-Force V8 engine but offers a standard cab with military side bench seating in the bed. A popular option available with both models is a roof mounted .50 caliber machine gun. Toyota trucks are valued in remote parts of the world for their durability and long life, Afghan leaders were quick to recognize this and have been major consumers of Toyota vehicles since the early 1990s. The new Terror models are, in part, a response to faithful brand consumership from the Afghans. "We don't see Toyotas getting used like this in America," said Yosukia Haramoto, Marketing CEO of Toyota's Middle East Block, "in the U.S. a truck might go two-hundred thousand miles without a problem, in Afghanistan and other terrorist nations they're ordering new trucks every other year." Haramoto explained that the volume of four-wheel drive trucks shipped to Afghanistan and Pakistan increased sharply after the Gulf War. Toyota sales in the region responded well to the preparations for terrorist activity. The corporation hopes that sales in Iraq and North Korea will pick up due to the fact that they are similar markets. Photos such as this, from the Afghan war, prompted Toyota engineers to develop a truck more suitable to the rigors of terrorism. Toyotas team of engineers was introduced to the problem of transportation in Afghanistan on a one month research and development retreat. According to Haramoto, they quickly discovered that the trucks already in the region were often heavily loaded when carrying troops and weapons, making escape from U.S. forces more difficult. The team went to work quickly, adapting Toyota's new I-Force V8 to the more nimble Tacoma platform. Expanded seating and weapons options came second in the Terror upgrade. A paint shade of gray that reflects a minimal amount of light and blends in well with most Afghan territory was chosen, the shade is also known for its lack of visibility from the air. In the final production models the radios were removed and Afghan print cloth seating was made available. Afghan forces were immediately pleased with the result. Haramoto is confident that the new Terror will be "Toyota's big seller number one" in remote parts of Afghanistan, and will quickly beat out the competition in the other "Axis of Evil" countries it is being offered in. All Terror models will feature an interior based around traditional Afghan prints and materials. It is unlikely that the Terror will be seen on America's car lots; Toyota has no plans to market the vehicle on U.S. soil. The Terror may see competition from the United States however, as both Ford and GM are currently developing their own terrorist edition trucks for export. MORE TECHNOLOGY NEWS • All Headlines • Print Edition Only Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy | Contact Us