billcoe

LMAO! I was actually thinking along the lines that most of these yahoos put together don't have the brains to carry your sweaty jockstrap, but I know many of them are college trained professionals who hold otherwise skilled jobs. At least when you and I disagree on something: there is an intellectual exchange of some sort and consideration of the logic of the others viewpoint. In fact, I often read political or economic things you say carefully as they are so well thought out, logically arrived at, and then transmitted. Same certainly applies to Jayb as well. Most of the grownups seemed to have moved on around here...... Regards!

OK, I listened. Seems pretty fantastic. Looked up the full Kennedy quote they had a short blub of. He is clearly pointing out communism vs democracy and NOT anything to do with the Rothschilds (unless one were to start believing in unfounded conspiracy). So it calls into question every one of the alleged links in that vid. Here is the full Kennedy speech not taken out of context: " Address to ANPA (1961) Address before the American Newspaper Publishers Association (27 April 1961) Audio I appreciate very much your generous invitation to be here tonight. You bear heavy responsibilities these days and an article I read some time ago reminded me of how particularly heavily the burdens of present day events bear upon your profession. You may remember that in 1851 the New York Herald Tribune under the sponsorship and publishing of Horace Greeley, employed as its London correspondent an obscure journalist by the name of Karl Marx. I want to talk about our common responsibilities in the face of a common danger. The events of recent weeks may have helped to illuminate that challenge for some; but the dimensions of its threat have loomed large on the horizon for many years. Whatever our hopes may be for the future — for reducing this threat or living with it — there is no escaping either the gravity or the totality of its challenge to our survival and to our security — a challenge that confronts us in unaccustomed ways in every sphere of human activity. This deadly challenge imposes upon our society two requirements of direct concern both to the press and to the President — two requirements that may seem almost contradictory in tone, but which must be reconciled and fulfilled if we are to meet this national peril. I refer, first, to the need for a far greater public information; and, second, to the need for far greater official secrecy. The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know. Today no war has been declared — and however fierce the struggle may be, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion. Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe. The survival of our friends is in danger. And yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired. If the press is awaiting a declaration of war before it imposes the self-discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say that no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent. It requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions — by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence — on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match. Nevertheless, every democracy recognizes the necessary restraints of national security — and the question remains whether those restraints need to be more strictly observed if we are to oppose this kind of attack as well as outright invasion. It was early in the Seventeenth Century that Francis Bacon remarked on three recent inventions already transforming the world: the compass, gunpowder and the printing press. Now the links between the nations first forged by the compass have made us all citizens of the world, the hopes and threats of one becoming the hopes and threats of us all. In that one world's efforts to live together, the evolution of gunpowder to its ultimate limit has warned mankind of the terrible consequences of failure. And so it is to the printing press — to the recorder of man's deeds, the keeper of his conscience, the courier of his news — that we look for strength and assistance, confident that with your help man will be what he was born to be: free and independent." You see this one below? I'd be more worried about people who seek both power and money and want more. Rothschilds have plenty, they can cruise and not worry over it, not Peolosi, she is the type who will want to be the rich and powerful lapdog. She rallied against the Obama tax cuts for the rich before the election and then on the bill's final vote, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., did not vote at all. You think her husbands tax free Guam based company is helping to reduce the deficit or not? Whom do you think she will side with? http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/166599-pelosis-net-worth-rises-62-percent- "Pelosi's wealth grows by 62 percent By Kevin Bogardus - 06/15/11 12:46 PM ET House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) saw her net worth rise 62 percent last year, cementing her status as one of the wealthiest members of Congress. Pelosi was worth at least $35.2 million in the 2010 calendar year, according to a financial disclosure report released Wednesday. She reported a minimum of $43.4 million in assets and about $8.2 in liabilities. For 2009, Pelosi reported a minimum net worth of $21.7 million."

We all know how close to the line it can get. 0 to 60 or 60 to 0 in a short time. Condolences to friends, family and loved ones.

Welcome back from the abyss Jim. LOL!

HELLO FELLOW BRO I HAVE ALREADY INITIATED THE TRANSLATION OF JB TO ENGLISH AND ANSWERED THIS 4 POSTS BACK I can only assume at this point that the handwaving thing is contagious and spreading?

You're welcome

OK then, FINE! I'll post this for jb to make his point, cause I believe that he's already said it in between some other personal attacks, thread deflections, handwaving and ravings. THIS IS WHAT JB WOULD SAY IF HE WAS COHERENT Click the link for charts and pictures. It's fairly well spelled out. "The Greek Myth of Profligacy The Fiscal Crisis in Greece Isn’t About Spending SOURCE: AP/Tatiana Bolari Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou announces Greece's decision to request activation of a joint euro zone-International Monetary Fund financial rescue plan. Greece is undoubtedly in dire fiscal straits, but the blame does not lie with overspending. By Michael Linden, Sabina Dewan | May 14, 2010 It’s not the spending. The Greek fiscal situation is a mess, a big dangerous mess. But they didn’t spend their way into that mess and they won’t be able to cut their way out of it. It is easy, and for conservatives certainly tempting, to blame Greece’s woes on overspending. Robert Samuelson’s recent op-ed in The Washington Post even goes so far as to claim that the Greek fiscal crisis signals the “death spiral” of the welfare state. He then tries to extrapolate lessons from the Greek crisis and apply them to the United States. The facts belie both of these claims. First of all, Greece is not the United States and the United States is certainly not Greece. Our nation boasts a fundamentally stronger and more diverse economy than Greece. And Greece has pushed its fiscal envelope much further and for much longer and now has less room to climb out of its hole without assistance from its euro zone partners. By contrast, the United States is in a far better economic state, with 3.2 percent growth in gross domestic product, a job market that is slowly but surely rebounding—with 290,000 new jobs created in April of this year—and total government debt at less than half the size of the Greek’s. Second, when Greece is properly placed in the context of its EU partners and neighbors, it becomes clear that its spending is very much in line with European norms. Where Greece actually stands out is on the revenue side. In fact, the real problem facing the Greeks is not how to reduce spending (though surely that will have to be part of the solution) but how to increase revenue collections. Before turning to the central problem facing the Greek government—its woeful lack of revenue—it is important to first cast aside the inaccurate claim that it was profligate spending that brought the Greek budget to its current state of disrepair. In 2009, government expenditures in Greece totaled 50.4 percent of GDP. While that is definitely high compared to the United States—we’re at about 38 percent of GDP, including state and local government spending—it is absolutely average among countries in the European Union. In fact, total government spending for the European Union as a whole equaled 50.7 percent of GDP, actually a bit higher than Greece. Ten of the 27 countries in the European Union spent more than Greece did in 2009, several by as much as 5 percentage points of GDP (see Figure 1). Average annual total government expenditures, as a share of GDP, 2001-2007 Greece’s location in the middle of the pack on spending is not some artifact of the massive recession. Over the past 10 years, Greece has consistently spent less, as a share of GDP, than the European Union as a whole. During the last economic cycle, from 2001 to 2007, Greek government expenditures totaled an annual average of 44.6 percent of GDP. Over the same period, the European Union as a whole spent an annual average of 46.6 percent of GDP. Germany, for example, spent an average of 46.7 percent of GDP over this period. Indeed, from 2001 to 2007, Greek average annual spending ranked precisely in the center of all EU countries, with 13 countries spending more, and 13 countries spending less. Fundamentally, the argument that the Greeks spent lavishly and licentiously ignores the simple fact that Greek spending is and has been boringly average for EU countries. There are many other European countries that spend far more than Greece does but do not find themselves facing a fiscal crisis. Consider the counterexample of Sweden. By some measures, Sweden is Europe’s biggest spender. From 2001 to 2007, total government expenditures in Sweden averaged 55.2 percent of GDP, higher than any other country in the European Union, and in 2009 Sweden spent 56.5 percent of GDP, second highest in the European Union. And yet its budget deficit last year was a mere 0.5 percent of GDP. Denmark, the only country to spend more than Sweden in 2009, ran a budget deficit of less than 3 percent of GDP. How can this be? Countries such as Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and even France spend far more than Greece does, but they pay for that spending with tax revenues. The problem is that even though Greek spending is studiously average, its tax collections are definitely not. In 2009, Greece collected just 36.9 percent of GDP in total government revenues. That was far below the overall EU total of 43.9 percent. Greece’s anemic tax collections ranked them seventh from the bottom among EU countries, with only Spain, Ireland (two countries also facing big budget predicaments), Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, and Romania below them (see Figure 2). This has been a longstanding problem in Greece. From 2001 to 2007, Greece consistently collected far less in revenue than a typical EU country. For the European Union as a whole, annual government revenue averaged 44.4 percent of GDP. For Greece, that average was 39.4 percent. During that period, Greece was one of only four nonformer Eastern bloc countries—out of 17 in the European Union—to generate less than 40 percent of GDP in revenue. The only other three were Spain, Ireland (these two again), and Cyprus. Consider Sweden again, with its more than 55 percent of GDP in government spending. Sweden collected an average of 56.3 percent of GDP from 2001 to 2007, a whopping 17 percentage points higher than Greek revenue collections (see Figure 3). Spending and revenue in four EU countries, as a share of GDP, 2009 The current crisis has cast a light on Greece’s shadow economy and massive illicit financial flows. There are varying estimates of the size and impact of the country’s underground economy. Some suggest that a quarter of Greece’s GDP comes from its underground economy and estimates are that Greece lost an estimated $160 billion in unrecorded transfers through its balance of payments over the last decade ending 2009. Greece is undoubtedly in dire fiscal straits, but the blame does not lie with overspending. On the contrary, Greek spending is exactly in line with what one might expect from a modern, Western member of the European Union. Its tax revenues, on the other hand, are clearly on the low end. Average spending plus below average revenues equals large, persistent deficits, and that is precisely what happened in Greece. Over the next several months and years, Greece may well be forced to cut back on some of its government services, but it will also have to find ways to bring its revenue collections up to levels more in keeping with its membership in the European Union. Pinning the blame on the spending may be easy, it may be politically convenient, and it may be satisfying, but it’s wrong. "

LMAO! Thanks! I don't have it in me.

Well, I could have asked Jon or Tim, but then I wouldn't have a way to change the header to "Farside". You win! I'm out of things to talk about and done beating this issue to death. I can't match your posting volume Kev. Dropzone is the new header I give up. Take care!

Bone is correct in the sense that Jon Stewart sent his route list into Tim and that pretty much guaranteed it would be in the book. If you go back and look, you will see that I didn't believe it was Jon or my call if it went into the book but Jim's. Jon disagreed with that:-) It all worked out though. I've been working with Tim on other stuff so I'm not "anti-book", just that I didn't think it was my decision to make for this spot. Bone, is it true that the condition was that the condition of getting Jon's list was that Tim had to print the First Ascentionists names? I think I saw something like that on CC.com earlier but don't remember if that is correct.

Ditto what Timetraveler says, there's like 3 of them, so check that you have the correct one. You can also get USDA topos to carry on your person at REI, and check this shizz for cubical dreamin. http://mapper.acme.com/

Your best post ever Pat. You got pictures of what the heck you're talking about? This is "clean" oil we are talkin about right?

LOL, I'm sure that in his mind all we need to do to make it right is spend a few trillion more here on stimulus (after all, those rich bastards have unlimited money) and create another million minimum wage jobs at McDonalds and a few temporary higher paying construction project jobs. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100619052039AAyqfD6 Part of his tired "government knows whats best" for you mantra. Better to head into an off-topic rant than confront the belief anything needs to be done anytime soon. We'll just keep spending like an out of control sailor on a drunken binge who just cashed his paycheck and leave the debt for the lil children to take care of.

Helium cams? It looks like I'll be able to pro deal them- but I most likely won't do it till the end of summer or so. I will say that Mikey nailed his earlier complaints about the DMM Cams right on the head. Especially the extendable slings. So first person to see some WC, post up. I'm drooling, but really don't need more gear as you know:-)

FACT: THE HATE TRANE IS GOING THE WRONG DERECTION BRAH Seriously, thanks for putting the warning out there. It's the right thing to do and I should have started with that. You might consider that folks are trying to make light hearted jokes, and not actually attacking you and trying to give you actual grief up thread:-) I went to put it on Mt Project yesterday and saw you had that covered already -thanks for that as well. I also (re)saw that Adam had seriously condensed the info and remembered that it was due to Kevbone calling him elitist. LOL! I suspect that this oversight of warning was my bad, as it was most likely a carry over from my earlier guidebook/route list wherein Jim had insisted that we have a statement in there about something to the effect that the topropes were all meant to be done left alone (unbolted) and TR after getting to the tops of the nearby lead climbs. He wanted the use of bolts minimized so that folks had the chance to grow as climbers and learn how to place gear....and no one forsaw this. Again, no one would want some beginner to do themselves in, and stupidity isn't really a laughing matter either, hopefully you steered them right and they learned something. (ie, learned to trust what their own eyes are telling them) Say hi to MikeR for me Ivan. Since Chad and I did his line, I've been back a couple of times this year and also didn't see anyone. Rapped and thoroughly cleaned and toproped Freak Freely and also solo led and cleaned (somewhat) Child Abuse. As Bryan suggested and Tim intimates at the start of the description in the book, it's a more dangerous place, a few bolts wouldn't hurt. Last time I was there the pins were still in Sweet Fucker. I had gone back a second time to put in that 2nd pin in so as to make it a better lead with less groundfall potential. If the pins won't be staying cause they are probably on someones rack now, there should be bolts put in where needed. Bryan had already suggested a bolt or 2 in Boo Coup and I'd said fine. (Didn't see that happen yet, and apologize again if he's a tad gunshy about running out there to do it) But I should mention what I said to him as well, if you are going to put some in just make sure to stick them in the right place and correctly is all Ivan. I concur that the Kiddy Litter spot will be nice for the munchkins once it's clean. I expect, and hope, to see you, Benny and Evanson there with the whole daycare crew at some point:-) That spot is an easy place to get a toprope on from the top and an exception to the warning. Maybe a good spot for those beginners as well. FACT: HEEL UP BRAH!

It looks fine to me.

Sale is on now and stuff is going fast!

I don’t think Joseph is saying that as much as the fact that he thinks Tim is at fault for: A) Producing a book that Joesph doesn’t approve of. B) Not adequately informing folks of the danger. For myself, I believe that is false criticism on both counts, and think we should share as we have an obligation to fellow climbers. It falls on us to help out people who are in need if we can be of some assistance to them. We should share with our bros if we can and be INclusive instead of EXclusive. Especially a place so close to town.

It's damned unpleasant and to be avoided. My route list, as did Jons, was given to Tim and I essentially don't have one anymore. Tim trimmed up a lot of the excessive verbage and kept some, and did a damned good job in doing so IMO. A lot of the 5 page cautionary tale I had in the front was by necessity cut down. I really don't want people to be getting hurt anywhere. There, here, ...anywhere. These questions do not get easily avoided. Same gig here: just did a new FA at a new place. Torn between bolts or not. Just cause my wide ass will fit in there......no bolts could mean someone getting hurt when they don't show up with a #12 valley giant....it's certainly worth considering, but at the end of the day, people make choices.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorials/2011790727_edit06greece.html?syndication=rss Seattle Times 2010. "Greece needs government spending reform Greece's problem is a government that spends more than it has, reflects The Seattle Times editorial board. And that is a problem not exclusive to the Greeks. Police clash with anti-government demonstrators Wednesday in Mytilene, Greece. THE crisis of public finance in Greece feels familiar. The Greek state ran deficits for years, under governments of the left and the right. With the recession, the deficit ballooned to 13.6 percent of Greece's economic output. In fiscal 2009 the U.S. deficit was 9.9 percent of output. America's deficit was not at the nosebleed level of Greece, but it was higher than in 65 years and almost three-quarters as high as Greece's. The Greek crisis is a warning that there are limits. Greece's debt is more than one year's entire national output, which ours is not yet. Greece has the further problem that it owes its debt in euros, a currency its central bank cannot print more of. The Greek government had to go hat in hand to France and Germany, reminding them of the billions in Greek bonds owned by French and German banks. Greece is being bailed out. But notice the price exacted from the people. Public workers in Greece, who get paid for 14 months a year, lose their extra month's pay at Christmas, and again at Easter, and are back to a celestial 12. Pensioners also lose the 13th and 14th months. The retirement age for women advances five years, to 65, the same as men. All this is being done by a socialist government. It didn't have much of a choice. The Greek government will also be clamping down on tax evasion by the wealthy. It will raise tax rates on fuel, alcohol and tobacco. It will raise the value-added tax, which is a kind of sales tax on various stages of production, to 23 percent from 21 percent. Greeks have responded with a general strike. The difficulty with general strikes, as Seattle learned with its own general strike 91 years ago, is gaining anything by doing them. Greece's problem is a government that spends more than it has. It cannot be fixed by quitting work and torching a bank. It can be fixed only by adjusting spending to the money available. And that is a problem not only for the Greeks."

Good on your guys for getting on it! That's figgan awesome. Post the full meal deal any time, it's your guy's place to say and do as you see fit. Tim is putting it in his next book, so if you want to bang out some new routes, do it now and send it into him as he really wants the info to be as current as possible. Hands on "Bewitched" on a clear warm day below. This is how you want it to be. I can tell I was face climbing too much back then, no scabs on the backs of my soft looking hands. Like right now I can see @ 30-40 scabs as I type from handjams last Saturday. I had tape and benzoin in my backpack too so no reason for it I guess. Kyle Silverman photo In 2009 the road finally cleared off like July 4th. We need a few warm days in a row still for it to get good up there I suspect. Here's a couple of links that you might find helpful. Look at the Tombstone road cam and it gives a close approximation of what it will be up there for you guys. It's the middle highway 20 one on this link. http://www.tripcheck.com/Pages/RCMap.asp?curRegion=4&mainNav=RoadConditions There are 3 cameras and the elevation is marked on them all. If it's clear a few days previous and doesn't rain before then you'll know what it will look like. Check the Feb shots below as indicative. A few days apart, and the snow just kept dumping through mar-april till it covered the camera over 20' up the pole. LOL! Here's the best snow depth link: http://www.wunderground.com/StateSnowDepth.asp?state=OR Clackamas Lake/Peavine Ridge use to be the best to look at as it was @3500 feet and very close in the same area. Clear Lake (near to Mt Hood) might be OK to use now as I don't see Clackamas now. If you click off to the right like say: Clear Lake, you will see it got dusted by an inch of snow this week. http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/sntl-data0000.jsp?site=401&days=7&state=or Check out how fast it's melting this week from the Mud Ridge data. It started the week at 21 inches and is now only 6"! Woot! Soon that log will get sawn off by a hunter and the road will be clear. MUD RIDGE 06/07 0000 10.0 21.0 06/08 0000 9.0 20.0 -1.0 -1.0 06/09 0000 8.5 18.0 -0.5 -2.0 06/10 0000 7.5 16.0 -1.0 -2.0 06/11 0000 6.0 12.0 -1.5 -4.0 06/12 0000 4.5 10.0 -1.5 -2.0 06/13 0000 3.6 6.0 -0.9 -4.0 06/14 0000 2.2 6.0 -1.4 0.0 At least this will help you guys to know how many layers to bring. LOL! Here's the overview pic of the main wall. For some reason the blow up feature isn't working. I can email a larger vesion if you have to squint:-) Have fun!

You mean personal attacks and erratic hand waving aren't enough of a response to your questions, thoughts or suggestions? You want meaningful discourse? LOL Good luck with that Jim. It's going to be a long road back for Greece, which is why we need to get our financial house in order now, and not wait until it's so very painful.

Agreed. Don't want that. Jim has always stepped up to help out folks. Of course, that chick who stepped off the trail and rolled downhill by Lacakamas Lake the other day and had to be roped out by sar, all the signs in the world didn't help her. Back to this idea. In the interest of helping, I will add that the sign should be in English and Spanish of course and include "peligro precipicio". The sign could have a picture of multiple people falling on it much like the one above, but include some little ones too, to indicate that it is also not safe for children to fall off the cliff. And no rolling rocks down either on another sign. And something about dogs too. Or have a picture of a dog rolling off with the kids so that everyone will know that you mean dogs and kids. Some kind of sign, could be a blanket statement like this: I think that inexperienced people have always been a danger to themselves except in places where the danger has been drilled out of the experience for everyone. ie, a line of bolts ending at an anchor. We just need to help folks out if we can and maybe they will survive. Olsens book already tags it, perhaps they only read spanish, or were going to go there first and then only later read the cautionary tale? Yep, a sign would be interesting. Take care all!

My son was just telling me last night that they had paper denominated in 1 trillion Zim dollars (pretty sure that's what he said). He rarely bullshits me so I looked it up. Bamm, kid was right. WOW! Prices doubling daily.....those poor people, how the hell can ya live? Opps, edited - I posted a link from a professor linked to the Cato institute. Time for every ignorant "oppressive" with no facts or argument to just totally ignore the data and attack the poster. Here we go - 3....2.....1........

Might me more stable, eh? Well, I was thinking we could pay it off for the Greeks with pocket change Jim. Zimbabwe had a 79,600,000,000% inflation rate one month. They chased out whitey and forgot to factor in stupidity in the gov't. The US can't print money that fast, although we are trying.