JoshK

Greg, get off my shit for god's sake. I know my history, thanks. Are you going to honestly argue that the japense culture hasn't undergone some serious change in the past 50 years? In my opinion, they have more than the Germans. I think seeing that you could build the world's second strongest economy by concentrating on things other than conquest may help. By your twisted logic, then we (Americans) are one of the most martial peoples on earth. Last time I checked we were pretty ruthless with the dudes that inhabited this continent before us.

THat is definitely a novel idea. About the patent thing...if somebody comes out with a product like that, or tries to patent it, there is a clause for "prior art" if you can claim you had the idea first. A post on a BBS such as this would do nicely. It would probably be even better that way...let them bring them to market then sue the shit out of them.

Jason, as I was saying after our trip up the ice cliff and down the sherpa glacier coulior, I would much rather side slip an entire coulior than have to miserably downclimb the stupid thing!!

The Arab Islamists are an obvious exception to your theory of evolution. But I also believe that the Japanese, Chinese, Germans are all martial people and that we have likely not seen the last of their warring ways. I would disagree with the statement about the Japanese but I could definitely see the other two. CHina almost for sure. Have you seen the euro coins minted in germany? They feature a very nice fascist looking eagle on the other side. hehe

Well put.

Greg, you assmonkey, where the fuck did I say *anything* about Kerry in my above post??

I thought the canoe camping thing would be cool to do with the GF too. I figured the extra $$ was worth not having to haul the piece of shit up there, but then again, I dont really have an easy way to haul it, so I guess the point is moot.

check out john's jo-berg trip report in the n. cascades forum. sounds like a pretty unfriendly location right now.

[quoteIt is you sir that is incorrect, this thread is about Arab Genocide.....while you have attempted to change the topic to Palestine, I have pointed out correectly that the vicious behavior has been going on for hundreds of years across the Arab world ! Hey cumslut, here is some homework for you. Check into some of the fine things done by christians and in the name of christ since the formation of that fine religion. You'll find a good number of nasty things done towards arabs or other islamic people. Even better are the fine genocidal acts against native peoples! gotta love those! My point is not that the middle east is a great place or that fucked up things aren't being done in the name of islam. My point is the religion that most of the moral high ground claiming tools in this country call their own has arguably been the most vicious and destructive in the history of the world. I'm sure Jesus Christ would be damn proud.

ssilBOI, please stop spewing shit out of your mouth again, it grosses me out. You are right...we need a real leader like bush to divert attention from real issues and instead concentrate on passing ridiculously stupid constituional amendment. Obiously we need to be worried about this...the sacred bond between man and wife is under constant attack by those militant gays! Damn them and their equal rights!

ivan, you've probably noticed I have hemmed and hawed and tried to avoid giving you the opportunity to actually *ask* if I want to do this peak for a couple of years now. I've decided if I ever do it, I'm finding a way (like you guys did) to avoid going down CJ coulior. I mother fucking hate downclimbing steep snow and that gully just looks particularly unsavory. Sounds like the "doug's direct" is the only reasonable way given your report on the state of the middle fork trails. That's too bad, I thought it might be fun to go up exploring that way sometime...

Anybody that has to prove their manhood by calling the rest of us gay for, gasp, not finding a particular chick attractive should check their own sexual preference. Why can't you buy that some of us don't find her very attractive? I can name a million and one girls I do find attractive, but she isn't one of them. Agreed, props to her for climbing everest, but I see little that it has to do with her looks.

I'm not sure how some of you defenders keep getting "yeah, I'd do her" and "she is good looking" confused. Of course if she was available in the tent next to me I'd bone her, but that certainly doesn't mean I'd give her a second glance in the real world. The mountains are like beer goggles, and she is certainly better than most "mountain chicks" you'll run across I'm sure. Other than that, she is totally generic and heavily made up look that seems to say "I dont age, I just get more makeup and photoshop editing done."

We did that climb in October, when the entirely thing was pretty much glacial ice. I would definitely agree it would be pretty underwhelming in more "normal" glacier conditions. Even as it was we had to go out of our way to find some technical climbing. -josh

I have to imagine this chick is one of the sorts who will scream and demand the film back if you take a picture of her when she is "not ready".

take care, sisu!!

Forest, I'm upset you interrupted that fascinating ratings debate. It's really easy to see how people could get all the summits and subsummits confused on the ridge. The summits themselves dont rise all that high above the rest of the ridge, but more importantly, the sheer number of subsummits make telling them all apart quite difficult. Only by being on the ridge and looking back on it right after getting off it did it at all make sense...

so I was sorta under the impression that, despite the original intent, grade ratings were relative to other stuff in the area. It at least seems it has become that way. There are grade 5s to compare to, such as the tomrmet-forbidden traverse. Obviously a traverse of either picket range is way more committing and difficult than torment forbidden, both technically and physical. So here is my real question...are there any grade 6s established in the cascades?

I would rate them nearly the same. The ptarmigan traverse is pretty straightforward if you have very basic glacier travel skills and route finding skills. Getting into Luna cirque is more difficult in my opinion, but it would be easier to get out of if the weather turned to total shit. Marylou, I know you were concerned with getting across imperfect impass. If you simply want to get into the pickets, have you considered approaching via big beaver and access creek and climbing luna? access creek is a schwak, but if you can put up with that and a river crossing, the rest is straight-forward but strenuous.

forrest, I just looked at your pics again, and it seems on the one pic that you are traversing the ridge, you are opposite of where we were. The most nasty spot was between crooked thumb and challenger, but closer to challenger as I recall. It was just a shade left (going our way) from the crest. Perhaps we missed a more solid way. All and all, however, I would agree...it certainly wasn't constant death rock or anything. I would agree about more people this weekend than the entire rest of the year. My guess is because most people spend several days getting in and out of challenger, it's easiest for them to do it on a 3-day weekend. I guess we missed seeing the majority of the people (save Iain's party) since we were a couple of days earlier. BTW, right on! looks like a great climb!

I would worry less about the number and more about the people you get along with and climb well with...

Yeah, skis amplify unpleasent approaches. As much as I bitch about access creek we probably on spent 2 hours in there. I just hate slow travel, that's all. I remember the differnce between bachelor creek (a fairly mild schwak) with skis and without as being very large.

Wow, of all the places in the cascades to have two parties poking around in... Did you actually see the two parties, or was it just prior tracks you were following? If the latter, it was perhaps Wayne and I. It's amazing we climbed right over the summit of your object on our way. You may have seen some of the webbing we left... I am surprised the rock was decent on the face itself. The ridges in the area left quite a bit to desire... To (not) answer your question, the best approach into Challenger was unresolved for me as well. The way you went is a tad longer in milage than little beaver. I think little beaver would probably be a shade easier if the way was clear, but the numerous brushy sections, washouts, etc. probably makes it the harder approach at this point. I think I would consider a car shuttle at this point so I could enter through hannegan and leave through big beaver myself. Just a thought...

Glad to hear you guys ended up getting in the trip and summiting! I wouldn't be ashamed one bit, 7 hrs to 4:10 with you guys carrying overnight gear is within the same time ballpark, IMHO!

Damn smart scientist people types Nice job on the degenhardt too! I'm glad ya got some revenge. I have a profound respect on what you crazy people are willing to drag skis through after my battle with access creek!