RuMR

hey wankslabmeister...ever climb at ceuse or buoux or verdon or any REAL sport climbing areas?? You'd be looking at 50-60 footers if you "climbed out of control"... this discussion is so myopic since your frame of reference appears to take junk like newhalem and exit 38 as the standard for sport climbing...

you obviously haven't climbed anything even remotely steep, say in the southeast, have you?? hahaha sport by definition top down! hahahaha...slab climbing pussy!!! hahahaha

So, Dwayner and pope are responsible for being deliberately inflammatory....I think the topic of bolts lends itself to argument and passionate opinions on all sides; especially because if some of us had our way, some of your "fun" might be curtailed. But let's take a look at some of the "civil" uninflammatory discourse offered by some of the other people participating in this topic, and then perhaps you can reassess whether we're the BIG culprits: "From moderator “Off-White” in addressing “dmuja”: For a born again wannabe dwayner-lite sycophant, you sure know how to be a sport climber…and it's so cute when you act all tough 'n sh*t…What a tool. “Kevbone”, addressing “JosephH”” What an assh*le……” "What does think he is f$%king Hitler? “high-on-rock” writes: “From the casual observer, what is lacking from Don Ryan and Pope is rationality and civility. Calling people Dorks and posting Pee Wee Herman photos lowers the level of discussion far below any level that educated folks want to partake.” NOTE: Read from the beginning of the topic to this point. The discussion from me was very civil and certainly rational from my perspective…no dorks…no Pee-Wee Herman…perhaps the only naughty thing I said up to this point was that calling sport-climbs “art” was conceited. Go ahead…check it out yourself…see who’s amping it up. More from “hign-on-rock”: “gotta tell you don, it blew me away to find out that you are actually an educated person.” “The sad part is that you are the only one who does not realize that the high horse has stumbled and you are falling.” “Give us your information Pope. Come on girlfriend, be brave." JayB joins the fray: “Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest.” Ken4ord contributes: “BTW poop….” Kevbone addressing “Puma”: “Another asinine comment…..” “Well…..tough sh*t…..” Dechristo chimes in: “what a dork” A few more Kevbonisms: “......you need to get your head examined.” “Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!” “Oh man Pope......getting worked over eh?” RuMR: “Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullsh*t frame.” “Come on, quit being a dick... f&ck, man, you and dwayner just make everything f&cking so black and white...get a f&ckin' life and take up a worthier cause...” “cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...” RichardNoggin: “YO POOP……get a life…STFU." “…too bad you cant see through your own sh*t”. More from “high-on-rock”: “The problem with Pope and Ryan is that they try to use the anonymity of the internet to be jerks without cost. No one has a problem with the views they put forth, merely with the junior high manner through which they put forth the views, and the “holier than thou” condescending tone they use. From here on out I believe I may send their identities by PM to folks upon whom they anonymously piss. Perhaps with a lack of anonymity comes accountability, and through accountability comes temperance.” Yup...it's all Dwayner and Pope...gettin' the folks all hot and bothered and MAKING THEM express the poetry cited above. Very nice review. Eight pages of "civil" and "educated" types like high_on_bolts making all kinds of insults and then admonishing you and me for being juvenile. Looks like they shut up for the moment....maybe they were just unaware of how nasty they were making the conversation! Sorry gang, I've been working all day. Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this. Regarding JayB's question: there are two aspects of sport climbing that make it considerably differnt than traditional slab climbing. First, sport climbs are always established on rappel (by definition). ANYBODY can "pioneer" such a route. Zero commitment, zero balls, zero skill, zero judgement required. Stopping to place a bolt is done on the way down by locking off the rope. There is complete safety. There is zero adventure. Often the bolts (being so easy to place) are placed way too close together. Often the climbs (being so easy to establish) are squeezed way too close together. Now, after the first ascent, once a line of bolts exists (on a sport climb or on a traditional slab climb), is there a difference? Generally yes (but not always). Because the bolts on sport climbs tend to be so close together you CAN often aid from one bolt to the next, or at the very least, you can climb completely out of control, throwing yourself at each move (or sequence of two moves) between bolts as though it were a bouldering problem. Great fun! But if you take that approach on most traditional slab climbs, you're going to get spanked. Traditional slab climbing requires you honestly to be able to handle the climb's difficulties (or deal with huge falls). So, even after the route is established, there is an extremely important difference in the two approaches. somebody responsible? This is cascadeclimbers!

H.O.R. it goes both ways....

hey, how did your dad's photo get in here?

they should bolt that tour de france up with a nice, shiny row of bolts!

don't you mean hysterics?

cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...

I think the local "ethics" of the crag should dictate what happens there... ie, I'm not too concerned about that shitpile known as ex38...

Well, I believe a bolt was a good idea in that case. You're trying to promote this image of me as being "black and white" on the issue, opposed to every bolt. It ain't so. Bolts have a place, a proper place. That bolt on that route is in a proper place. And if you're not too old and fat, you should go do it. Then you'll agree, and you'll probably thank me not only for placing the bolt but for showing such great restraint and wisdom. And then I'll probably ask you to shut up and stick this in your mouth: no thanks, i just brushed my teeth and used another toothpick already (that looks like it might leave residue)...you should really go see someone about your "condition"...a shot of penicillan will do wonders... Seriously, the problem in your logic is you do accept bolts in some cases and in others not...the crux becomes, who draws this line and where is it drawn???? No one location/authority/person can do this and satisfy everyone...

WERD.

oh the shifting sands of logic...FUZZY LOGIC, that is...

where's that sense of commitment?? those balls? why do you need the protection before the move?? YOU SANITIZED IT with a bolt...what's wrong with a dangerous route? Why does it have to be led? why why why? Especially if you could have soloed it????

Layton = man-whore

Um, whatEVer. yeah, whatever to you...why don't you use that big fat ms salary you were spewing about to buy a 10 muthafukin' visit punch card and quit bitchin...jeezus whoops...scratch that last post...got you confused with snugtop...proceed on...

Um, whatEVer. yeah, whatever to you...why don't you use that big fat ms salary you were spewing about to buy a 10 muthafukin' visit punch card and quit bitchin...jeezus

This is old news. Most who have climbed it feel the route's single bolt is appropriately placed in a spot where reasonable protection is not available. Without it, you'd have to do the crux and face a big, swinging fall back into a shallow dihedral, or maybe hit a ledge. If bomber gear existed at the crux, there would have been no bolt. The crux is gymnastically much harder than the rest of the route, which means a climber could easily reach the crux and then find himself way over his head. The guidebook incorrectly credits a handful of people for this climb when it was mostly the vision and effort of Scotty Hopkins. The bolt hole was drilled on the lead, but our 3/8" Fixe bolt somehow didn't fit the hole. We then borrowed a rotohammer from Jim Phillips and put in a 1/2" bolt at the crux. Scotty, Jason Mikos and I thought it was about 5.9+, but it went in the book as 5.10b. Feck and others have taunted that if I were a "real bad-ass", I wouldn't have placed a bolt. May I comment that: (1) I'm not nor have I ever claimed to be a "real bad-ass". (2) I could free solo the route if it would make you happy (but I probably won't because I'm a daddy). (3) I'm not an anti-bolt Nazi. Bolts have a place in climbing. ...so let me get this straight...you placed that bolt to protect someone who might arrive at that crux unprepared? Isn't this akin to "protecting" the masses, only slightly ever so slightly less? It sure would be nice if you were consistent (besides the consistently annoying via ferrata cum fratboy-tool photo that crops up incessently) in your logic...cuz right now, i'm having a hard time seeing how you aren't sinking in your quicksand logic...

I'll concede that many routes have been established on rappel with excellent results. But if you scrutinize the photograph, you'll notice a difference between this (possibly) lead-placed bolt and what you see at Exit 38 or Smith: the bolt in your photo doesn't exist in a grid of bolts. My problem with rappel placed bolts is not the result but the method. Rap bolting is just WAY TOO EASY. One needs zero skill, zero commitment, zero balls, zero ability, zero experience and zero judgement. The result is that anybody with a Bosch can establish a route, and too often when you look at what is getting bolted, one can only conclude that is exactly what happened. Bolted climbs today are sloppy and crowded together. Short "routes" receive far too many bolts, and this mentality spreads into Wilderness areas and to traditional crags. Climbers get used to having a choice of clipping the bolt by their knee, hip or shoulder, and then they expect this sort of artifical experience everywhere they go. Maybe there's a bold lead on Castle Rock that only a few people have managed over the decades. Maybe it's getting a little dirty. Gee, wouldn't it be neat to put some bolts on it so that it's comparable to that route on the east wall at the Redmond Vertical World? And who wants to lug a rack of large cams up the Grand Wall for that undercling above the Sword? Ain't it neat that we can just clip bolts and zip past? The worst thing about rap bolting is the attitude it fosters. So for me, how the bolts go in matters. Sport climbing and rap bolting represent the ultimate disrespect for the traditions of mountaineering, and also absolute laziness and the rejection of a "leave no trace" ethic. Now go back and study your photograph. Imagine that same cliff in Leavenworth. There would be at least five other bolts visible in the neighborhood of the one you've clipped. That's because here in Washington, "It's all good". Makes me wanna puke. if i remember correctly, perry's lieback was done as an A0 ladder, not free climbed first...bolts have nothing to do with "zipping" past it...they were aided...nowadays, no biggie... I may be wrong...where's that fuckin' squid lover, dru, when you need a piece of trivia... anyway, proceed on...

hey...i didn't say that...Only cuz he said it first!

wtf? who flickin' cares...

yeah...but that is a FUNNY pic!

Hey crispy dick, yer lookin' a little shriveled... better go buy that corvette for that impending mid life crisis...

i know...the real issue is you feel robbed of the incredible climbing at ex 38, don't you??????