RuMR

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight? Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself? So pope, did you go and rehearse it? jeez, what poor form. it's unfortunate we are in a public forum and your buddy dwayner will see what you've been up to, you know, rehearsal and all. pfft. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume you're a little out of your league on the topic of doing Brass Balls "leashless" and you probably shouldn't even start this conversation. I did it unroped after leading it several times, but there are important differences between this kind of rehearsal and what typically goes into climbing 5.13 these days. 1. In my rehearsal, I never fell, hung or aided. 2. In my rehearsal, I never left a mess behind. 3. For my performance, one could argue that rehearsal was just a little more important. There was a little bit more than a pink-point in the balance. Finally, you'll read (in this thread, I believe) that I don't have a big problem with rehearsing, if that's what people find entertaining. If it's important to you to climb the next BIG NUMBER and you've got the time and desire to rehearse the snot out of something, feel free. But Dwayner's right in suggesting that this approach to climbing is what has trivialized 5.13 and that a climber who can barely manage a 5.12a flash could probably pink-point a 5.13. Thus, large numbers of anonymous climbers are doing it (maybe even Kevbone has managed this). So, no problem with the style of hangdogging. It's not for me, but whatever. I'll just say that when you're bragging about your BIG NUMBERS, remember that you shouldn't trick yourself into thinking you can really climb that stuff. Also, make an extra effort not to leave a mess when you're done. nobody but you two fucking tools has brought their personal accomplishments to the table...you two are the only braggarts around here, douchebag...

or in dwayner's case: Roll in it...

There is nothing "on-going" and "the bet" was childish. Here's the story which directly relates: A few years ago, there was a discussion about hang-dogging in which I described it as "siege climbing". The old school philosophy is that you climb from the bottom up, and if you fell, you were lowered to the ground and started over, or you trained on lower grades and worked your abilities higher until you were good enough to address the climb on its own terms. Hang-dogging...hanging off your gear to rest, falling repeatedly while rehearsing the moves, was considered weak free-climbing, essentially aid, and bogus. It demonstrated that you weren't ready. So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site? An analogous tradition can be seen in the expedition vs. alpine tradition in mountaineering where alpine-style climbing is considered a stylistically superior means of obtaining a summit. Reinhold Messner epitomized this by advocating and demonstrating the concept of climbing the mountain by fair means, not beating/sieging it into submission. I also made the analogy on cc.com about a piano; something to the affect of: You may not be able to play the piano today but rehearse it enough and you'll be able to play a Beethoven sonata. This, by the way, does not mean that you have the same skill level of someone who has worked up their skill level to the point where new music can be set in front of them and they can play through a sonata without falling all over themselves. I made the comment that I felt that nearly any climber with the dedication could, using the present rules of sport climbing, pull off a 5.13 if they were allowed to rehearse the moves endlessly into submission. It might take them months or a year or whatever, but put up rules like that, and it opens the door to all kinds of faux-accomplishments. I picked 5.13 because a lot of folks see that as a BIG NUMBER! and it seems to be a usual number for when the on-sight leading often ends and the sieging begins. Some folks chimed in saying 5.13 wasn't such a big deal anymore....it's what 5.12 was 20 years ago or 5.11 25 years ago. They're all over the place now...Whatever, I was making a theoretical statement apparently lost on many. Then the usual cc.com taunts began, and a few of the usual and predictable blow-hards came out with frat-boy challenges to collect a bet that Dwayner couldn't possibly climb any kind of 5.13 no longer how he tried. It was utterly childish. One major moderator on this site told me that it would be impossible for me (to which I replied that I hope he doesn't spread his crappy attitude to children). The school-yard buddies delivered their usual lame clichés: "put your money where..." and my award for the most pathetic of all time: "don't cash a check your *ss can't deliver" Believe me, if I had a convenient crag nearby, the interest and inspiration, and importantly, the time (none of which I have), it would be very satisfying to engage in such a challenge myself....it's not an excuse...it's reality...(on the other hand, I don't have an inclination to respond to juvenile bets, but if I ever do, it will be on my own time and terms). Regardless, my concept still stands. Perhaps someone with an abundance of the factors that thwart me can prove me correct. Now wasn't that fascinating? Hi Dwayner. How have you been? Long time no speak. ok enough chit-chat. It's easy to say "Oh I could do that." I know, because I do it all the time. It's a confidence I have, but the time eventually comes when I step on to that which I have almost blithely dismissed, and thank goodness occasionally get my ass kicked. This is good for me! It smacks me of my arrogance! It lets me know that I need to try if I want to do something, and that nothing is given until it is actually accomplished, and also takes me to what I love about climbing: figuring stuff out. Let me re-state that: until one has climbed something quite specific, well, they haven't climbed it. Rather self-evident, yes? No amount of rationalization, equivocation, explanation, prognostication, hubris, or ventriloquism can change this fact. You should know this: before that dinosaur bone is in your hand, it isn't in your hand, and you don't know whether or not you will find it. Perhaps you have a good idea that a specific location might contain dinosaur bones and eggs and mummies and stuff, but since you haven't climbed even a 5.12, what makes you think you will find a mummy in your closet? Until you actually step out from behind your excuses and attempt that which you so arrogantly dismiss, you will be nothing but an archaeologist lost in your closet. Did you know that Andres Segovia spent most of his time practicing scales and etudes? Very simple stuff, rehearsing and rehearsing. Many artists do this. Personally I'm more pulled by the spirit of things and not just the mastery, but I admire mastery also. You, Mister Don, need to be less arrogant and climb more, instead of always complaining about the state of climbing. OMFG...so brilliant...damn...

I have a problem with the means of obtaining the objective. Do you really think that sieging a sport-climb to obtain some high-number is equivalent to having the skill to climb the route on-sight? By the way, Matthew Perkins, you were the one who told me I could never climb a 5.13....you sized me up and decided I was incapable. I still say it's possible for most who want to work up to it or employ siege tactics...you seem to be the one putting limits on people, including people you don't know very well. no...and i don't recall anyone ever making that claim...do you?

There is nothing "on-going" and "the bet" was childish. Here's the story which directly relates: A few years ago, there was a discussion about hang-dogging in which I described it as "siege climbing". The old school philosophy is that you climb from the bottom up, and if you fell, you were lowered to the ground and started over, or you trained on lower grades and worked your abilities higher until you were good enough to address the climb on its own terms. Hang-dogging...hanging off your gear to rest, falling repeatedly while rehearsing the moves, was considered weak free-climbing, essentially aid, and bogus. It demonstrated that you weren't ready. So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site? An analogous tradition can be seen in the expedition vs. alpine tradition in mountaineering where alpine-style climbing is considered a stylistically superior means of obtaining a summit. Reinhold Messner epitomized this by advocating and demonstrating the concept of climbing the mountain by fair means, not beating/sieging it into submission. I also made the analogy on cc.com about a piano; something to the affect of: You may not be able to play the piano today but rehearse it enough and you'll be able to play a Beethoven sonata. This, by the way, does not mean that you have the same skill level of someone who has worked up their skill level to the point where new music can be set in front of them and they can play through a sonata without falling all over themselves. I made the comment that I felt that nearly any climber with the dedication could, using the present rules of sport climbing, pull off a 5.13 if they were allowed to rehearse the moves endlessly into submission. It might take them months or a year or whatever, but put up rules like that, and it opens the door to all kinds of faux-accomplishments. I picked 5.13 because a lot of folks see that as a BIG NUMBER! and it seems to be a usual number for when the on-sight leading often ends and the sieging begins. Some folks chimed in saying 5.13 wasn't such a big deal anymore....it's what 5.12 was 20 years ago or 5.11 25 years ago. They're all over the place now...Whatever, I was making a theoretical statement apparently lost on many. Then the usual cc.com taunts began, and a few of the usual and predictable blow-hards came out with frat-boy challenges to collect a bet that Dwayner couldn't possibly climb any kind of 5.13 no longer how he tried. It was utterly childish. One major moderator on this site told me that it would be impossible for me (to which I replied that I hope he doesn't spread his crappy attitude to children). The school-yard buddies delivered their usual lame clichés: "put your money where..." and my award for the most pathetic of all time: "don't cash a check your *ss can't deliver" Believe me, if I had a convenient crag nearby, the interest and inspiration, and importantly, the time (none of which I have), it would be very satisfying to engage in such a challenge myself....it's not an excuse...it's reality...(on the other hand, I don't have an inclination to respond to juvenile bets, but if I ever do, it will be on my own time and terms). Regardless, my concept still stands. Perhaps someone with an abundance of the factors that thwart me can prove me correct. Now wasn't that fascinating? hey tool bag...is a gym convenient enough for you??? I'd count a plastic 5.13 as valid...go for it, man, show us you can do what you spew...or shut the fuck up...or are you saying, in reality, that for your weak crumbling self, all the stars must align to pull off such a boast???? childish? childish is spraying crap about somebody's accomplishments, decrying their methods, then claiming that YOU could do it, but then saying "but i don't want to play that game"... YOU ARE A POSER...plain and simple...

hopefully some of it will actually trickle through all the redtape and find its way into our roads and bridges...

i don't really care what is causing it...my real point is that people/gov't/etc. better start ponying up or this is going to become a lot more commonplace...

yer no fun! pfft!

bush et. al. is representative of our gov't, from my viewpoint... sure congress approves everything...let me revise my stance...the fed gov't is a fuckin' looneybin...there, ya happy now?

no Sobo...one could argue that bridge collapsed due to lack of funding/resources...in fact, that is the primary reason for its collapse...if you think about it, repairing a structure is actually pretty damn easy if there's a blank check involved...

hey kevbeenboned...ask dwayner about the ongoing "challenge/bet"...

6 of one half a dozen of the other... it's all about the change btw it is all to amuse you rumr well you certainly "amuse" me...

Yes. Of course. yeah carl, you're right...my bad...all of that money and resources is sooooo well spent there... tool...

520 actually has a lot of things going for it structurally...that little bridge is far exceeding what its designers anticipated...

OK, in case you're ignorant of this fact, climbing has traditions. These traditions dictate that climbing involves not only athletic ability and skill, but also boldness, adventure and respect for the medium. Turn your back on this and you'll lose what makes climbing special, what makes climbing different than Olympic-level competition in track or volleyball or synchronized swimming. Now, if you don't value boldness and tradition, but you still think scaling walls is "neato", then I suggest you stick to gym climbing and top-roping. Thereby can you remove ALL adventure and boldness from "climbing" and concentrate on perfecting your stupid little "project". I don't have a problem with this approach per se....it's when your bastardized form of climbing requires molesting our cliffs with a grid of bolts to accomodate your poor style that I have a problem. There you go folks, the only reasons to climb is for boldness and tradition. If you are climbing for any other reason then you have bastardized the whole sport of climbing. You might as well take up sycronized swimming. So what about mountain biking, isn't that a bastardization the sport of cycling? Ah the shame. Gawd damn why did ruin golf by making these damned groomed course everywhere? Didn't they realized that golf was to be played in the rough? The list goes on and on. Sports evolve, not that evolution is always a good thing. Seriously man, I agree with you on some points when it comes to bolting and find overbolting quite rediculus at times. Though, when you start spewing about what climbing is to you and make blanket statements that other aspects of climbing are for sissy's and gym weenies that don't have any values. Then it just makes you sound like one of those right-wingnut narrow minded christian fucks who can't seem to understand there is more than one belief system to live life by. Yeah I think it is crap to stick BoLT's on every little piece-o-shit crag everywhere, but I can step off the soap box and understand why they want their BoLT's and accept they don't appreciate climbing for the same reasons I do. Just because they don't appreciate climbing for the same reasons I do, doesn't illegitimze what they consider climbing. As long you can't get beyond that you will never make a change in bolting ethics, you'll just keep the fight going and get nowhere. ...and nevermind the fact that he's looking at an enormous fall if he blows it...yeah, those pesty finger cracks are soooo much more adventurous/dangerous...

its the same stuff that is used to form the underwire in bras...memory alloy...nitinal...amazing stuff...

hey dwayner... about that lil' wager we had several years back that you wisely decided to ignore...I still got the mula in the kitty...what say you?????

Mediocrity is available to any trustafarian with the inclination. OH...I SEE...its the people who are blessed that get to do this...not the ones who've said "fuck everything, i'm going climbing"... you are an idiot...and of course, had you been granted unlimited resources, you could've attained sharma's level of mediocrity!

oh...and fuck bush...the amount of money that fucking dipshit is currently pouring into that sandheap could totally retrofit/rebuild OUR OWN damn infrastructure instead of shit that will just get torn down or blown up by some stupid camel jockey...that fuckin' tool (bush, not the camel jockey, actually, scratch that, it applies to both)...

heat is not usually a problem...the bearings were apparently shot though, so maybe "expansion" was blocked up and inducing more compression causing a buckling...probably not though...extremely unlikely...

devalve? you mean devolve? Or do you have someone "devalve" you? (Which sounds like fun, by the way) gawd, i love "muffyisms"

flexon frames.... completely INDESTRUCTIBLE

dwayner is a bitter old fool...he actually probably cares more about this ascent than most do...in a negative way, of course...

US OLD FOGIES ARE GONNA GET PWN'D funny thread...