Bug

Correction: The boy scouts will not admit gay boy scouts, either. Full disclosure: the Boy Scouts first got me out of the house and into the mountains. I owe that organization a life long debt of gratitude. Can I interest you in makeing a contribution to Boy Scouting and/or leading classes on climbing? Yes, I would be happy to help in leading some classes on climbing for your troop. Promise I won't preach Atheism. PM me. Careful tvash. You are on your way to a bible meeting with evangelical fundamentalists. "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to GOD and country...." A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. OK, so I violate a few of those from time to time, and one all the time. And no, I didn't have to look that up. What could be better than teaching a kid how to climb? As a Christian and a former Boy Scout, I would say that you are too judgemental to lead such a conservatively traditional group. Oops! Now I sound like you telling this guy he can't practice his religion on Denali. Anyway, I find this thread and the internet very entertaining. The public free flow of thoughts and feelings is unparallelled in history. Your posts are great. I really enjoy the heathen and atheist constructions of a world I see so differently. By all means, teach these young Christians how to climb. Just beware of their hidden agenda.

God created you. Now that's funy.

Correction: The boy scouts will not admit gay boy scouts, either. Full disclosure: the Boy Scouts first got me out of the house and into the mountains. I owe that organization a life long debt of gratitude. Can I interest you in makeing a contribution to Boy Scouting and/or leading classes on climbing? Yes, I would be happy to help in leading some classes on climbing for your troop. Promise I won't preach Atheism. PM me. Careful tvash. You are on your way to a bible meeting with evangelical fundamentalists. "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to GOD and country...."

At about 3% of the population, I wouldn't feel too threatened. Pontif, when are going out to worship the powdery white god on the holy long shoes? Richard Dawkins says that there are probably more atheists than there are Jews in the world, but they tend to be so independent and such freethinkers that they don't tend to organize and form lobbying groups like religious groups as the Jews have. Just sayin'. great! maybe all of us atheist should get together, pick a really cool spot, and declare it our homeland. It's called China.

Heard on the car radio last night on the way to the (new) Vancouver Cliffhanger: "I try to always be present in the moment, because it might turn out to have been the defining moment of your life." - Joe Wright, director of Atonement So I turned off the radio and tried to pay attention to traffic.

Bump

bUMP

Last time I ate some, I ended up on a runway and almost got taken out by a small aircraft landing. I was thinking in 3D after that.

So if there is not a crater at the base, it isn't A5. This seems more akin to free soloing than free climbing. Instead of rubber on the rock, it is metal. Other than that, the same rules apply. Ever hook a crystal? It can require a lot of balance. Link several of these. Or a full pitch of them. It comes down to the security of the belay and the frequency of landing zones. That is not so different from the placement of bolts or pro on a 5.13 or harder. Making the security of the belay part of the rating is different from rating the difficulty of a move and the succession thereafter.

I am not a pre-destiny oriented guy. "Your time" is when you make a big enough mistake that you can't recover from it. That mistake could be anything from leading out too far to getting into the passenger seat with a driver who has just eaten acid. I have personally almost lost my life many times. The frequency has decreased with age and experience which is good because it was sheer reflexes that saved my ass a number of times in the distant past. Dodging rock fall is a good example of good reflexes. But knowing how to AVOID rockfall is a good example of experience. The same mountain continues to spit rocks down the same gullies but my overall chances of being taken out by them has decreased by virtue of the fact that I know better when and where rocks are likely to be flying through the air. I am reminded of the guy I was riding with across eastern Montana who hit some black ice while accelerating and went into a spin at 65mph. He let go of the wheel, threw up his hands and screamed "We're going to die!!!" "FATE" almost got us. I have spun out at high speed twice and it never occured to me to give up, let go of the wheel, and let "FATE" take its course. That is what's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. So from this thread it would seem that there is another element of human nature at work here. Why do some people let go of the wheel when others would not? Why do some people have an unquenchable drive to survive no matter what, when others see futility in the same circumstances and give up?

evolution vs creationism = ignorance no matter which side you are on because it is not a dichotomy except in the minds of the ignorant. Mythologies were everchanging. Ours was frozen by a new technology called literacy. Literacy gave birth to fundamentalism. Jesus threw the Pharisees out of the Temple for adhering to the Law (Torah) without acting with grace. Jesus also spoke about following your heart not a rule. He also said that "I am the Word, the word is Love, only through me (Love) will you get to the father." Now if you are talking about Islam, their "Word" is the Quran, a book. Big difference.

Ignorance is what drives all persecution. I would rather climb with these guys than with the Korean team that got air lifted off of the Cassin at 17K two years in a row and never once even thanked the rescue team. You poor schmucks have a need to hate. I mock your arrogant assumptions that you know the motives of every Christian who was ever alive.

This is not my style. I would feel foolish. But I would not care if someone else did it any more than I would care if someone were publically expressing their opinions on atheism. I like living in a free society where I am exposed to countless variations on the ways of life and world views. Why fear them?

You could always get good drugs there.

Yes in many cases. Yur right. That is disparate.

You used half the words and jumped to twice as many conclusions as JH. You are the master.

Jumping in with both feet eh? Check for water next time.

Unless you were a saint.

Perhaps Hell is reliving every moment of your life in intricate detail, over and over, for eternity.

Indians were labeled "Savages" and dehumanized making it "OK" to commit genocide. "Conversion" to a missionary of the time meant "giving up the heathen practices" of their ancestors, symbolically represented by giving up their dress and language and especiall their religious traditions which were prohibited by US law until the Native Amercan Religious Freedom act was passed in 1976. That is not a typo, 1976. "Conversion" to a Blackfeet for instance was accepting that Christians had been directed by God to practice the same rituals and Morals as the Blackfeet ancestors. Souix had similar beleifs. In my research during the time I spent studying NA traditions at the UofM I did not find one Christian who had learned the language and traditions of a NA tribe not one Native American who had studied Christianity, who thought they were different religions. For examle, after over 30 years of living with Navajo, Father Bernard Hale was asked how many Navajo he had converted to CHristianity. He paused and thought for awhile then replied, "Maybe one. But I don't think so." To this day, his writings are amoung someof the best ethnographic works on the Navajo.

Bug - I'm not familiar with how the historical abuses of the Native American Tribes have been attributed specifically to Christian activities vs. US Government activities....can you please clarify what you are referring to here? Google Carlisle Boarding Schools

Living "in the moment" is a path to enlightenment in most if not all traditions. But it does not presupose a single reality.

The history of religion is clearly marred by human desire and judgemental tendencies. Religion is dangerous. Good people get lead down a road they would not otherwise have followed. Christianity is no stranger to these abuses. It may be amoung the worst. But the foundations of the teachings of the founder are clear, put love first, follow your heart and use the Bible secondarily. The Pharisees were thrown out of the temple for violating this concept. As for the specifics of the abusive tactics of missionaries to aboriginal peoples, they will meet an angry God some day. Joseph sounds militant to be sure. His wife's people have seen some of the worst abuses of Christian religion imaginable. It does not take much time spent amoung traditional practitoners of Native American traditions to get an idea of how painful it has been to be a victim of Christianty. As modern Christians, we have a huge deficit of wrong doings to overcome both in perception and action. A quiet and steady, no-judgmental approach seems appropriate. A rousing worship session at camp 14K would piss me off. I was raised atheist and came to "beleive" in the mountains amoung the sounds of nature. I still go there to revitalize. I do not need religion to do so and I would hope this would be respected. Otherwise, this trip sounds like a good idea.

We need to find this guy and review some guidlines.

He was in Bozeman from the sounds of oe of his posts. That is a small town and would be a small climbing community. Post somewhere in partners or the Climbers forum to see if anyone from Bozeman can help you figure out what's up. From the look of some of his posts though, I doubt that he is riping you off. Good luck!