Fairweather

W, glad to hear you're not a lefty or a liberal. Actually, I'm quite happy with the progress made in this world. Despite the doom and gloom crowd's twisted statistics, more people are living a better life on this planet than at any time in history. Sure, we could do better, but is that our (USA) sole responsibility? I say stop blaming the USA for all the ills in this world. Frankly, I couldn't give a rip about the grievances of Muslims, "Paestinians", the Arab world in general. While I am interested in improving the living standards of those in other countries, I am not interested if it means lowering mine. Flame away! It won't change my mind one bit. When I hear second guessing babble in the media, on college campuses,and yours, I get a bit upset. Some of the "lets just step back and all take a deep breath" crowd that post here remind me of a climber that makes the decision to jump a crevasse, but just as they start their lunge they hesitate, and all is lost. Fortunately the vast majority of the citizens in this country aren't interested in any "hesitation" either.

mtnranger, don't let the second-guessers on this site like "Sexual Chocolate", or "W" get you down! As a climber for over 20 years it has been exasperating being associated in any way with the "university hippie, WTO protester, eco freak" stereotype that is justifiably out there amongst the general public. I'm so fed up with these commie-idealists that I am no longer willing to overlook their peutred beliefs when selecting climbing partners. I have climbed with SF personnel on many occasions and always find their company on a climb far superior to that of some babbling, whining poly-sci kook. I salute your dedication to our (yes, GREAT!) country and wish you success and a safe return should you be sent to fight. God's speed mtn ranger!

Zenolith, I believe what Bush said was something to the effect, "ridding the world of these evil do'ers". When you write that he is claiming an attempt to "rid the world of evil" you are grossly misrepresenting and misquoting what our pres. has said to create agnst and gain others sympathy for your bias. As for HIS "aimless" life.....don't YOU live in Eugene?

I can't think of any case where I wholeheartedly disagree with our country's foreign policy. Except maybe in Kosovo where we have stepped into a millenium old conflict. We are right on track here. We were ATTACKED and have every right to root out our enemies. If some "innocents" are killed in the process that is regrettable...but not to the point where we should falter in our resolve. After all, did we worry about killing only NAZI government officials when we fire bombed Dresden and killed (by some estimates) 140,000? War DOES solve problems. By today's university-snotnose brat standards, we would have let Hitler continue on in the name of "peace". (While I support students right to protest, I firmly believe that tax payer supported, tenured professors who encourage subversion should be fired...NOW. We send our kids to universities to be educated, not brainwashed!) FYI Sex Choc...fighting communism in Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador and everywhere else was, as Ronald Regan said, "a noble cause". I believe our support of Isreal is also a noble cause. They are our friends, and you stand by your friends...something a liberal probably would not understand. Palestine, defined as a country with borders, never existed. Arafat was offered his dream of statehood less than two years ago...he turned it down. Let's not worry about what "they" think of us. Showing weakness now would be suicide. Let's just do what has to be done.

My problem with cigarette smokers: They seem to think the whole world is their freakin' ashtray! My problem with pot smokers: They're usually nice, but not very bright...and because of their decreased lung capacity, they are usually not in the best cardiovascular shape.

S.C.,You will not find any one pair of boots to suit all of your needs. General summer mountaineering plastic boots such as the Koflach Degree are certainly the most versatile for climbs like Rainier or similar. But add a dry approach more than, say two miles and your feet might become hamburger. The Degrees would probably be OK for a winter trip up Rainier but your feet might get a bit cold. The Arctis Expe ($$$$) would be a lot warmer, and essential for an Alaska climb. If you go into the North Cascades or Olympics you'll need a leather mountain boot if you don't wish to carry BOTH a light hiker and plastic boots. There is no one boot that covers all types of mountain terrain. I own/recommend: light hiking= One Sport Moraine general mountaineering w/long approach=La Sportiva K2. mountaineering=LaSportiva Nepal Extreme (leather,expensive) or Koflach Degree(I dont own) winter mountaineering=Koflach Arctis Expe For a general summer mountaineering boot I really like the La Sportiva Eiger. When my K2's finally wear out (like they're about to) these are what I'll replace them with. About $275. Remember this: Koflachs fit BIG, Asolo's fit narrow. Leather will break in width, but not legnth.

Just curious. Can anyone answer? Why the hell is a simple transceiver like an avalanche beacon so expensive? The technology is quite simple. Especially in the non-directional type. Is there some major gouging/price fixing going on? Additionally, avalanche probes...you know, those segmented aluminum poles...are going for $70 and up! Do the companies that produce, import, and sell these devices have no shame? Don't get me wrong. I'm a total believer in the free market, but even gun makers are willing to sell gun locks at, or only slightly above cost.

Lane peak...The Zipper, The Fly, and Lover's Lane. (all in the same day??)Rainier...Gibraltar Ledge or Nisqually Icefall. Although I've summited Rainier over a dozen times,(including these routes) I'm zero-for-three tries in winter.

Right on Rodchester! Too bad some here subscribe to revisionist, PC history. It was a mutual effort.

Pope, re: "technology is a crutch...." If used as a substitute for experience and and competence, I agree with you. For example, using a GPS without posession and knowlege of how to use a map/compass/altimeter is stupidity. Using waypoints instead of wands in a whiteout is foolish. I do feel that technology can provide convenience and enhance safety without detracting from the mountain experience. Its different for everyone. Slightly off-subject: I say an OLN show on these guys who crossed the Patagonia Ice cap using skis and being pulled along by para-kites! Any thoughts on this? While certainly not "unethical"....they weren't motorized or even mechanized...but did they really "do it on their own"?

swore I'd never use a GPS when they first hit the market. Now I use it regularly. Swore I'd never carry a cell phone into the mountains. Now I sometimes I do. I'd rather be alive than adhere to some arbitrary set of rules laid out by the mountain nanny purists.

oops...re: above...that was "National Academy of Sciences". Source: ABC News, 6/29/01.

quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: Dru. Do you drive to the crags or mountains? Your air-pollution doesn't wash off. Do you wear nylon-based garments? Oil is used, a non-renewable resource. Do you use wood products? Old-growth forests will really never be as they once were. All of these affect the air we all breathe. Do you eat cow? (Are you not proud?) The methane produced by cow-farming significantly increases atmospheric methane, which increases global warming, and meat production also increasing net-suffering on the planet. The effect of bolts pales in comparison. PS. A strong enough acid would wash those bolts right off.... OK Chocolate, You're the one trolling so I'll take a bite: 1)"Your air pollution doesn't wash off"...actually it does, minus some CO2. 2)"Old growth forests will never be what they once were"....sure they will, if left alone for a few hundred years. (And by the way, a replanted clearcut actually absorbs more CO2 than an old growth forest) 3)"Do you eat cow (are you proud)"...yes, occasionally. It is delicious. As for the "suffering"...better the cows than my hungry children. 4)"blah, blah,blah....increases global warming".....Last year the Academy of American Scientists put forth a document stating that the Earth IS in fact warming. 6000 members signed a statement to the fact that humans are to blame. However, 15,000 signed a letter stating that NO conclusion can be reached at this time regarding any human causation. In other words...probably just a natural cycle. Global warming is a fact. Those who blame humans for it may have an agenda. (they think we're "living too well"??)

I know some about this subject. Actually there is a place right here in WA where the ice is over 1000 ft thick...just down from the base of the Blue Glacier Icefalls on Mount Olympus. Another factoid: the largest glacier "by volume" on Rainier...The Carbon. It is over 500' thick in places. Someone spoke of "dry glaciers". I was in the Wrangell Mtns two years ago near Mount Blackburn. Even with all of the huge "active" glaciers around I noticed at least a dozen rock glaciers around and above the Root/Kennicott flow. I guess miners actually bored through a few of them to get at the mountainsides which were laden with (75% pure) copper ore.

Beck, there were two climbers who dissappeared back in the early 80's on a November Adams climb of the south spur. Are these the same guys you were looking for? Some speculated that they made the summit, but walked off the ice cliff above Rusk Glacier during their descent in a storm.

If you look at those hanging glaciers today and compare them to the photos in Becky's guide you can note the dramatic recession in just the last few (20?) years.

Such terrible sorrow. Your story leaves reply difficult. For me, the irony is that when I'm on a climb that is potentially dangerous I worry more about my kids at home than any anything else. When I take my kids on a climb or hike I am extremely cautious, even paranoid. I always take a short rope, even on easy day hikes and rope them up to cross even easy snowpatches. I hope my paranoia does not dampen their enjoyment of these trips. I also find that evenings at high camp make me somewhat depressed/homesick, whereas morning finds me psyched and in high spirits. Strange but true...

re: the last few posts; agreed. I did not start the thread, but obviously my comments on Islam hit a nerve with some here. I must say, Hayduke went to the greatest legnths to "enlighten" me, and while my opinion is basically unchanged, I felt compelled by some other's posts to defend my position again and again. Rest assured that I will say the same about ANY religion whose masses endeavor to supplant or bully elected governments around the globe. I can't remember who called me a NAZI, but that was offensive and you should rethink presenting such hysterical responses. Back to climbing...no more political discussion from me. Taking my kids up "Old Snowy" this Sunday.

Jason, Obviously you did not bother to read the entire string or you would see that I have not advocated killing thousands of innocent people OR Muslims. I find your "Hitler" analogy interesting though as equating any idea or opinion that isn't P.C. in today's world with NAZI evil is standard procedure for university idiots. I guess I had better conform MY ideas to yours, or I'll be labeled a nazi. Where did you learn that tactic? It really takes a lot of thought to present that accusation. I wonder if you would defend Christianity with the zeal you do Islam. The fact is, secular, elected governments around the world are under seige by Muslim... "extremists". Indonesia, Phillipines, Pakistan to name a few. Their leaders dare not make any political decision without the consent of a cleric or the Islamic masses. I am thankful we live in a country where separation of church and state is (for the most part) law. Before you rush to the defense of Islam, consider life under one of their religous-dominated governments or the conditions under which ALL of their people live re: personal freedom. And before you accuse me of NAZI sypathies you should read the entire thread!

Hayduke, While enlightening, you neglected to list the Islamic countries that DON'T allow universal sufferage. You'll find that these countries are self described "Islamic Republics". For example, Pakistan is ruled by a secular military dictator; Iraq is also ruled by the same. Indonesia, Mali, etc all have secular governments. I'll admit I was surprised that Iran was an exception and I'll give you that. The "core" of Islam on the Arabian Peninsula is certainly not friendly to women's voting rights nor are other countries like Afghanistan where women are not even allowed to drive a car and must have a "permission note" from their husbands to be in public at certain times. They are not allowed to hold jobs. Additionally, girls are not allowed to attend school. Is this an abomination of Islam, or its literal meaning come to fruition?

Eddie, Yes, with nukes or similar. (fuel-air explosives) Yes, we advise them (the host country of these terrorist dogs...not Afghanistan for sure) that a certain city may be a bad real estate investment in, say 48 hours. "Nuclear" stirs up some terrible passions I'm quite aware, but we killed more people in Dresden and Tokyo with incendiaries than we did with the two attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Other than helping Muslims in Kuwait, Saudi, and Bosnia, I'm not sure what "land" of theirs we currently occupy. We pay them a fair price for their oil...its called trade. Last time I checked Louis Farhakam was the leader of The Nation of Islam.

Eddie, We have no chance of measurable success with ground troops in Afghanistan. The entire country is a defenders dream...and winter is on the way. The Soviets were humiliated...and they were real bad-asses back then. Since the American public rightfully is not accepting of long protracted wars with American dead, and since a short volley of cruise missiles is terribly short of what is required, I think an appropriate response that says to terrorists and the rest of the world that we mean business is the complete destruction of an UNOCCUPIED city. 6000 dead Americans/other nationals can't be left unanswered for and frankly anything less than a brutal response will only invite more of the same. As for Islam...Every time there is a terror attack I hear, "this does not represent the real beliefs of Islam"... Well you know what? I don't believe it anymore. Budism (sp?) seems to be one of the few religons that hasn't at one time of another tried to forcibly convert the world, or at least its neighbors. You still haven't answered my position that Islam is an affront to women. Can they vote in ANY Islamic nation? Maybe Pakistan or Egypt? Certainly not Saudi, UAE, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc.

Eddie, We have no chance of measurable success with ground troops in Afghanistan. The entire country is a defenders dream...and winter is on the way. The Soviets were humiliated...and they were real bad-asses back then. Since the American public rightfully is not accepting of long protracted wars with American dead, and since a short volley of cruise missiles is terribly short of what is required, I think an appropriate response that says to terrorists and the rest of the world that we mean business is the complete destruction of an UNOCCUPIED city. 6000 dead Americans/other nationals can't be left unanswered for and frankly anything less than a brutal response will only invite more of the same. As for Islam...Every time there is a terror attack I hear, "this does not represent the real beliefs of Islam"... Well you know what? I don't believe it anymore. Budism (sp?) seems to be one of the few religons that hasn't at one time of another tried to forcably convert the world, or at least its neighbors. You still haven't answered my position that Islam is an affront to women. Can they vote in ANY Islamic nation? Maybe Pakistan or Egypt? Certainly not Saudi, UAE, Yemen, Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan, etc, etc, etc.

AlpineTom, Hayduke, and Eddie, It appears to me that you have all thrived in the world of academia...Western of Evergreen, no doubt...where concepts "moral equivalency" (tolerance ...that all political and religous systems are equally valid)are forced into the minds of those with no real world experience to the contrary. I couldn't help but notice that not even one of you bothered to counter my stand with any debate at all...just the typical "shout it down" dribble that our public universities encourage. I'm sure that you all ( better yet, your daughters, wives, mothers) would really enjoy life under Islam. I'll take secularism any day. Good luck to you. Hayduke; aren't you the same guy who said terrorism was OK if it was "for the Earth"?

....Let me add...IF Bin Laden is the guilty one...Bush seems to be doing the right thing in sorting out all the facts first.