Fairweather

W, How do you reply to a post and break out those multiple quotes? Everytime I play with the instant UBB code bars I screw it up!

For the record, I have only used this access once in 20+ years of climbing. I'm just glad the USFS is actually fixing an access road! But to those who want to make existing 2 day hikes and climbs all over our state into week long expeditions just so they can have a popular place all to themselves during their summers off, or during their long and frequent stretches of unemployment (and then cite bogus or minute environmental damage as the reason) I say.....yes, indeed you are being a bit selfish. I'm wearin' my big silver suit, so flame away mo' fo's... [ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ] [ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

Pope, I personally prefer to take the gloves off and engage in a verbal idealogical slug-fest. I don't stoop to personal name calling, but I do enjoy attacking the ideas of "the other side" and applying appropriate labels. What I admire about Mr Puget is his general civility and the fact that I know he will often defend a position with which he personally disagrees but knows is "right". I believe that a person who can argue both sides of an issue, even when they believe only one, is worthy of admiration.

quote: Originally posted by W: One more comment- should the mountain be reduced to having only one "guide route"- and it pains me say this because it (selfishly) has potential to "intrude" on a sentimental area and the place of my first roped climbs and a place that holds some special meaning- the Emmons is way more logical. It is less steep than the DC, WAY SAFER a route, and the terrain is FAR MORE conducive to allowing faster teams to pass slower teams than the DC ever will be. I cannot figure out why everyone flocks to the DC thinking it the easiest way up. It's a choss pile and has both rock and icefall danger that has killed many people. The Emmons has a longer approach and more crevassed terrain but technically and objectively is a no-brainer. A perfect route to guide. W,I think the fact that The Emmons often isn't "in shape" for as much of the season as is DC, plus the fact that DC has two or three "back up" variations (ie: Ingraham Direct early season, DC mid season, and south Emmons late season) is probably why Muir is the chosen route. Plus the fact that White River Campground isn't open early season to accomodate May or some June climbs and parking would be a problem. I would just as soon see Emmons the preferred route for independents. Also, if RMI was allotted 1/2 of the permits for DC wouldn't that be an increase from the 1/3 they get now? (are my facts wrong here?...I honestly don't know) I am not sure the Emmons is any safer than DC. It is sure more scenic! I believe that Furher Finger in June or early July is the safest way up Rainier. (for a small party, that is) You are right about the Guide Shack at Muir. What an eye sore! I don't have a problem with huts in general though. Europe and Canadian Rockies/Interior Ranges have done well with them. They tend to concentrate people and help negate "mountain sprawl". I was pissed when Olympic NP started burning down public shelters back in the late 70's....but that is a different subject...

Peter Puget, I don't know who you are, but you are by far, the brightest beacon of reason on this web site. While I don't always agree with your positions, you are somehow able to convey the same point of view I possess on an issue without subjecting yourself to the same flamings that I so often receive. (although Retro's reply may be an exception) I still find it amazing that crag climbers who probably voice support for The Access Fund, want to limit others ability to enjoy the outdoords. No new roads!....but maintain the ones we've got!....I support the status quo!

RMI is a first class operation. They not only open the door to many who lack the necessary experience to do the mountain "on their own", they have come to the rescue of many an "experienced" party as well. That said, I believe that a fair and competitive bidding process should reveal only ONE guide service to operate on Rainier. Lou and company have proven themselves time and time again. The Dissapointment Cleaver (with its minor variations) should be the only "guide route". The appointed guide service should not possess more than 1/2 of the available permits for this route. The Emmons, Kautz, Tahoma, Furher Finger, etc. and all of their permits, should be reserved exclusively for independents. At the very least, the climber-to-guide ratio for non-DC routes should not be allowed to exceed 1:1. Disclaimer: I have never been, nor have I ever used the services of a guide and/or guide service. My two cents. Brian

I beg to differ re: "Hikers and climbers who love the deep wilderness have fewer." With more and more roads and trails falling into disrepair each year, and only limited repairs and maintainence, might I suggest you are GAINING opportunities for solitude while the short-hoppers are losing ground. Damn....The Tahoma in two days? Nice job! [ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

W, My post was intended to remind both you and Duchess (both of whom work/have worked (?) in, or for MRNP) that the park is not a personal playground for its employees. A certain employee "pride of ownership" is quite understandable but the general public, like it or not, expects a certain level of access. Deciding on "what level" is the trick. The Westside Road exists. There is not a proposal on the table to plow a new road into the park. With Carbon River access looking grim (next big flood and it is "no more") and pressure increasing on Mowich Lake Road I believe it is important to re-open this road. Where real, physical environmental damage is occurring I support closures/quotas/limits on human activity. But I don't support government enforced solitude. The Wilderness act states, "....where opportunities for solitude exist." Indeed, they would still abound in MRNP even with the re-opening of WSR. Re-opening Westside Road would INCREASE opportunities for solitude in other areas of the park. As I've said before; throw a dart at a map of the park and go there...chances are about 99% you'll find the solitude you seek. Sure, you might have to say "hi" to a couple "yahoos" along the trail, but when you arrive at Vernal Park, Elysian Fields, Cowlitz Divide, Sunset Park, Paul Peak, etc, etc, etc, etc, you'll probably have the place all to yourself....even on a weekend! Perhaps compromise could include an odd/even calendar day access for the road? Perhaps limiting auto traffic to parking space available....yes, a quota.? "Compromise" means just that, W. Any suggestions? [ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

quote: Originally posted by Duchess: w, i think you are right on the money. i have spent a considerable amount of time on teh west side road, and nearly every occassion has brought me the delight of seeing bears, deer, evidence of cats, etc. this road has become a wildlife mecca. i cringe to think of the road reopening, and the wildlife displaced. the west side road, as stands, provides a wonderful way of getting away from the crowds for the people who WANT IT ENOUGH TO EARN IT. What about people who are quite capable of "earning it" but just want to take their young children, or aging grandparent on a day hike or short overnighter? Many trips on the west side are now "mini-expeditions". The Tahoma Glacier was once a reasonable 2 day climb, but is now a four day trip. Opening this side back to those who work 5+ days per week is only reasonable. The old fire-ring at Aurora Lake or occasional social trail can't be considered true "resource" damage. ( I think there are bigger fish to fry. Don't you?) If you want to lock the public out of a once-popular area because you just don't like to meet other hikers/climbers along the way ("social concerns"), maybe North Cascades NP or Pasayten Wilderness are more your cup of tea. Regardless; I'm kind of tired of hearing about the plans for a "shuttle service" on Westside Road by the park service. They keep dangling this carrot and using the proposal to leverage less popular ideas and proposed closures. [ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

I'll second Dru's pick; "The Unknown Mountain" by the Mundays. Right up there with "Tales of a Western Mountaineer". Also...Best Alaska climbing story, "Breaking Point" by Glenn Randall.

My two favorite mountaineering books are both local mountaineering classics: "Tales of a Western Mountaineer" by CE Rusk. Great book written in the 1920's by the author about his many climbing adventures in the Pacific NW. "Mountain Fever" by Aubrey Haines. A collection of very descriptive historical climbs of Rainier around the turn of the last century and before. "K2 The Savage Mountain" is my favorite "big mountain" book. I've got a signed, 1st ed. copy.

When it comes to "mass" which is the biggest? I've read Mount Logan, and Mauna Loa on the Big Island. Any info? Or does this just boil down to words chosen? Also, which cascade volcano has the most "mass"? Rainier, Adams, or Shasta? Sounds like there are some here who would know...I don't.

quote: Originally posted by imorris: That was us! I think we saw you top out of the couloir. We were the two dots up near the summit ridge. I was going to solo the RHW but unbelievably ran into a friend of my at I. Saddle, asleep in the snow. We simul-soloed the route, which I have to say, is well worthwhile if you have not climbed it before. Much more interesting that Leuthold in my opinion. We too, were bruised and bloody coming out the gullies. I wonder if you found the descent down to the Reid from the saddle as unusually difficult as we did. -Iain We false started by going high from Illumination Saddle, but after 5 min & hard ice above that little 30 ft drop I turned around and dropped 100 ft to The Reid. Easy going. Are you the guy I talked to on top about the La Sportiva Extremes you were wearing like mine?

quote: Originally posted by klenke: Message to The North Face Store and to those who have been misinformed by them (as reported in their last topic): The tallest volcano in the world is NOT Cotopaxi (19,388 ft). Cotopaxi is not even in the top 5. The tallest is Chile's Ojos del Salado at 22,589 ft (6,887 meters). Cotopaxi is not even the highest in Ecuador, this goes to Chimborazo (20,700 ft). As for Russia's highest summit, this is always in question based on new borders and new sibling countries forming. But last time I checked, Mt. Elbrus (18,476 ft) was still in Russia (just north of Georgian border). Plus, there are volcanoes on Russia's Kamchatka Peninsula that are higher than The North Face's assertion of Belukha (14,780 ft). The highest summit on the Kamchatka Peninsula is Vulkan Kluchevshoy (listed at 15,580 ft but probably closer to 16,000 ft). Call me a stickler, but I don't like misinformation. A lot of people can think know the truth about someone or something, but they really don't. One should never assume. It is irresponsible at best. Amen!!!Another one of my favorites is when I read, "We're going to climb Huascaran, second highest peak in South America".

quote: Originally posted by Zenolith: was it just the wind that made it bad or was there something else? At first we thought it was just the party above us scraping sastrugi lose, but it became apparent soon that it was very strong wind ripping thin ice feathers off of heavier rime. Very cold. Almost got blown over on the Queens Chair, but kinda weird, the wind died down by half as soon as we hit the summit ridge.

Climbed Leuthold today with Terry Mclane and friend. Route was in bad shape. Strong winds were blowing rime ice feathers into the entire couloir. Without helmets (and goggles) the climb would have drawn blood. A steady rain of ice pellets the entire legnth of the couloir averaging the size of a quarter, but some as big as golf balls. No rockfall. Some ice on route. We set two pickets for running pro. Left Timberline at 3:30am, reached summit at 10:50. 7 hrs,20min. One other party of two on this route, and one successful party on Reid Headwall too. [ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

Isn't David Lee Roth of Van Halen fame into big wall climbing, or something like that?

Trask, I'm glad I'm not the only "right wing nut" around this forum. Every time I try to talk sense around here I get flamed by the lefties! I'm surprised Winter, W, Alpine K, and the lot haven't shown up here to roast you for "spewing hatred"....not to mention killin' those cute lil' racoons. Ted Nugent rocks!

This is an interesting story Trask. Curious that the Bush admin. says "yes" where the previous administration said "no". I'll be looking for more details, but it would seem that in a fair bidding system, these trees should indeed go to the "highest bidder." ...Just keep in mind...Bush could mandate 70mpg autos, 10 billion for alternative energy research, and an end to timber harvests in the US tomorrow......and it still wouldn't be enough to placate today's environmental left. That's because what most of them really desire is an end to capitalism. The environmental debate is merely a convenient vehicle they (some of them) can use to help them acheive this goal.

Duchess, I have spoken to two park rangers re: the reasons behind the delays; one at the wilderness desk in Port Angeles, and last month a naturalist at Hurricane Ridge. Both told me that this was the reason bridge repairs were being "delayed". Both of them conveyed via their tenor and expressed impatience with my questioning of ONP motives, that hey were 100% behind keeping hikers out of this area. The Hurricane Ridge ranger was delighted that the Dose Road had washed out recently and the fact that this would (her words) "take some of the pressure off". (getting the bridge repaired) You stated that you have had some experience dealing with these issues at MRNP. This case at ONP reminds me of the Carbon River road debacle, where federal repair $$$ went unspent and were almost lost because Bill Briggle refused to stand up to environmental groups/lawyers who wanted to see the road closed for good. I attended a public meeting where many, including Dee Molenaar gave him a real ear-full about this subject. (as well as the Westside road issue) I can't help but think his early "retirement" had something to do with the many letters that were sent regarding this....but this is just speculation on my part. I'm glad he was replaced with Jarvis who seems to have a more "even handed" approach to things at MRNP. (his Crystal Mountain meddling notwithstanding) I know he was respected up at Wrangell-St Elias where I have spent some time. Just speculation, but I predict that within 5 years you will hear talk of, or outright proposals to severely cut the # of climbers on Rainier under the "solitude" provisions of The Wilderness Act. The USFS is already being threatened with lawsuits by "Wilderness Watch" down at Mount Hood. If they succeed down there it will embolden them to try the same on Rainier. Solitude is so subjective a concept, I believe it has to be ammended within (or out of) the Wilderness Act. "Opportunities for solitude" will always exist for those who are willing to go off the beaten track. Just throw a dart at a map of ONP or MRNP....chances are about 99% you can go to that place and find "solitude"! [ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

MattP and Duchess, My biggest problem regarding the High Bridge issue is that I have been repeatedly lied to by ONP officials. They have stated on several occasions "next spring", or "this fall". One park official even told me that repairs were underway "as we speak"....that was 2 years ago. Why not just come out and say "we aren't going to repair the bridge because of the ESA"? That would open the subject for public debate....and hopefully stir the ire of hikers/climbers....the very thing I suspect they are trying to avoid. Don't get me wrong you guys; I love watching eagles, hawlks, and other birds of prey as much as you do. When I think of how rare a sighting used to be when I was young, compared to now....the recovery is incredible! And we can thank good science followed by the enactment of reasonable environmental law for this wonderful (ongoing) story. I believe that the ESA crosses the line between "reasonable" law and social engineering. It is being abused by some groups and their lawers who hold sway over the National Park Service and other land mgmt agencies. On the other hand, I like the fact that the ESA is now being used against (or for; depending on your point of view) urbanites/Seattleites who have so smugly imposed it on those in rural areas. (Hey Seattle! Tear down the Ballard Locks!) ....I digress. Brian

Duchess, maybe we should just close the whole park? ...That is, except for ONP rangers (and their close friends). Show me hard corraberated science that demonstrates N.S. owls will abandon their hatchlings at the sound of a few distant hammers and saws over a relatively short span of time. I believe there are even cases of Spotted Owls nesting in urban surroundings!...I believe one case was inside of an abandoned K-Mart sign! Should we ban all trail maintainence within ONP? Not trying to flame you too bad here as you did attempt to reply to me query about the nesting owls, but if The ESA comes down to "what if's" and not hard science then maybe it is due for a re-write. (along with the solitude provisions of the Wilderness Act of 1964) [ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

quote: Originally posted by Dru: Is she wearing Levi's 501 denims?

Great report! I've summited Rainier 15 times, but I am zero-for-three in winter. I'm still hoping for a weekend weather/snow condition window to open up before March 21st. The fact that I'm locked into "weekends only" makes this seem unlikely. This guy makes it sound easy!

I watched an "extreme skiing" competition last month on cable TV. (OLN?) Guys skiing 55 degree 4000' vertical with short cliffs thrown in for good measure. Somewhere in NZ I think. These guys weren't just doin' little hop, hop, hop turns either! Big sweeping high speed turns. Incredible to watch. A future Olympic sport?