slaphappy

Gee, reward us oh "great one"...

wedge type anchors rock for granite, yo. 5 piece bolts can be removed at a later date so the hole can be reused. and they have a lower profile less likely to snag a carabiner gate open. my nizzle. yo. Lummox, you are wrong. I explained it to you last time you posted the same thing. The tip of a 5-piece bolt is almost impossible to retrieve from the hole and drilling through it sucks. A wedge anchor is not that hard to remove and the hole can be oversized and reused. Wedge anchors work fine in good stone. That said... I do however agree that a 5- piece is still a better choice. In addition to the lower profile "hex", It uses a hardened grade 5 bolt and has way better pull out strength in shitty stone. They are pricier, $1.35ish compared to a wedge at about $.50.

Speaking of subtle traces... you didn't notice the ones on that upper 8-mile route?

I met Annie, and the thought of it makes me ill.

It is a crag. It does not need one, as pointed out, it already exists, although no one planned it as such. The whole original post is absolutely ridiculous. Preaching to the choir I guess the thing that really struck me as stupid is the idea of hauling two 60M ropes up a 5-6 pitch route just so you can save 10 minutes and a little effort. and just to get the record straight, I can't back my truck up to the bottom of Snow Creek wall and belay off my bumper......so it ain't a crag. Uhh... if it's not a crag, what is it, a mountain? Right back at yah, tool.

It is a crag. It does not need one, as pointed out, it already exists, although no one planned it as such. The whole original post is absolutely ridiculous.

Returning to Erik's original post... A first ascent is a first ascent regardless of the style used. Whether or not it should appear in a guidebook or not is a diiferent topic. Were the adventure climbs reported to the guidebook author? When approached by the author, was there an exchange of information or was he shrugged off? Did the author selectively omit some of these climbs? Were other routes in close proximity, put up in a different style, included? I think the truth is being twisted a bit, it seems to me that for the most part the higher crags in the Icicle were left out on purpose. When I asked for a specific example of one of these retro prepared lines, the response was "one near Warrior Wall" this hardly applies to the original post. For the most part the routes in this area are all 1-2 pitch climbs and incuded in detail in the latest guide. I ask again for a specific example. There are many climbers exploring the upper reaches of the Icicle and Tumwater and have been for generations. They use the same (or similar) ground up, clean as you go, style that Erik and friends use. Little care is taken to document these ascents and likewise they don't care if someone in the future has a vision and puts forth the huge amount of effort to prepare the route, claiming it as a "first". Often times the prepared line deviates from the original line and ends up a more asthetic climb. Erik, if you truly care (and obviously you do, you wouldn't have brought it up if you did not), you should report your and your friends climbs and your original point will become moot. On a similar note... I have read countless times that the climbers who clean new routes are motivated by their name in a guidebook. Why then, do these same seemingly ego driven people not report their new routes here on CC.com the audience is far larger? Sure, some might say that the general distaste for bolts commonly expressed here is a deterent but as Peter Puget pointed out a few weeks ago, this summer has been a fantastic one, and scores of new routes were likely put up all over the state. Why then were the ones that did not include bolting or thorough cleaning not reported here? Perhaps their motivation is not as ego driven as some may think. SEF- In your well thought out post you mention having direct contact with the land managers in the Icicle. To be more specific, are you refering to the Forest Service or private land owners? What are their specific concerns? Is it the "white stripes", the impact on the hillsides, or perhaps the cars lined up along the road (many of which are the result of organized clubs)? Have you or anyone else discussed it with Andy Fitz? -slap

In many cases I agree and in others I do not. It depends on the route, the pro, the style it was put up in, etc. etc.

Erik- many of these "reclaimed" routes you speak of are being cleaned by the same people that put them up MANY years previous. Is this not acceptable? I would also venture to guess that some of the adventure climbs you do were also done years ago and left unreported for one reason or another.

Iam not sure what route you speak of but it isn't on Warrior Wall. Are you talkin about Duty Dome perhaps?

Which routes on Warrior Wall?

Sometimes people do a ground up 1st then go back and clean the route years later because they feel it should get repeated. What Yoder routes are being "reclaimed"?

In an effort to help make this forum a success (and the promise that it will remain relatively spray free) I decided to share a fine route with the masses. Needing a break from the long approaches and massive amounts of bugs, a friend (HeadSpace) and I decided to do some mid summer L-town cragging. We opted to head to Big Ben Tower to see what it had to offer. Gear to 3" should suffice. Approach: Big Ben Tower sits above and slightly East of Careno Crag, easily visible from Icicle Road. From the base of the Regular Route continue up a faint trail to the base of Exotic Dancer (has been retro cleaned!) Continue up and right along the base of a series of broken crags (some good short cracks and faces) to the base of Fishtoe. As the crags end, Big Ben becomes visible a short ways straight up. Aprox. 1 hr. The route: There are a number of crack systems (mostly short and wide) that lead to the top of the tower but the most stunning and obvious is the system on the left side of the South face. From the left toe of the tower climb mid fifth to a slab with an old 1/4" spinner, cross the short slab to a roof with a large chock stone blocking the entrance to a chimney. Grope, grovel, and grunt past the chock stone (5.10) to a good stance below the squeeze chimney. Climb chimney (5.8) and gain a perfect forty foot hand crack (5.8) to a ledge with a shrub. (We belayed here although it would be possible to continue through to the top.) From the shrub, continue up the hand crack to the summit.(5.8) Total length aprox. 180'. Descent: Upon finding no reliable rappel station, we decided the small tree previously used had been burned in the 94' fire. There is now a fixed station heading into the notch to the North. Aprox. 50' Although there is not a huge amount of climbing for such a long approach, we felt it was well worth the effort. Cheers!

What's the big deal with tick marks there? I can see if the boulders were around Green Lake or somethin but why do they matter at Zeke's? I'm not much of a boulderer, but it doesn't make much sense to me. Do they really help that much? When doing routes, I often tick micro edges or depressions from a good stance so when I look down I can quickly place my foot where it needs to go and move through. Is this the same thing? Seems trivial to me.

fucking DONT put in wedge type anchors. spend the extra 15 cents and get a 5 part bolt which can easily be removed and replaced using the same hole. BEEP! Wrong-o there lummox, never done it have you? 5 piece bolts are not "easily" removeable. The tip/wedge remains in the hole and is every bit as difficult to remove as a standard wedge anchor. You can drill through it but it sucks. Removal of wedge anchors is not that difficult. It's better just to drill a new hole a few inches away and patch the old one with epoxy and dust. It does not take much skill to seal them off and make them invisible. 5-piece bolts do hold far better in soft rock, more surface contact. * An extra $0.15? Try closer to an exra $1.25 each.

Nooooo! The horror...

The bryophytes have staged a revolt...

My post-climbing beverage of choice is whatever is left from my pre-climbing beverages and my mid-climbing beverages.

no offense pms, but crackbolter, you know how I feel about that...

The Reverso SUCKS and in my opinion is dangerous. I used one heavily for about 9 months and had razor sharp edges worn on both sides. I tried another, same bullshit. I also found that it locks up when there is any wear on the HMS carabiner connecting it to your harness. I use an HB Sheriff as my main device with an ATC backup (free at the base of Total Soul ) The HB works the same as an ATC but has a solid retention loop instead of a cable that gets sucked into the device. If your a Reverso user, I would inspect it often and replace it as soon as it turns into a knife!

Ben's suggestions are good but here's a few more... a copy of the new guide will help you as well. *Duty Dome/ Off Duty area- half dozen or so bolted pitches in the 5.8+/ 5.10- range all of high quality. Must do's- Straight Street 5.9+ (pitch 1, 2nd needs a few pieces), Aquamarine 5.9+(requires a few pieces). Also close proximity to Fish Wall, Jazzy Document, Snaakes!, and Yard Art (some require a small rack) * Clem's Holler- 10-12 bolted pitches ranging from 5.7-5.11. Must do's- Gun Rack 5.9 roof, Nettlesome 5.9+, Playin Possum 5.10- (pitch 3 is best), Perils of Pauline 5.11, Poultry in Motion 5.10. From Clem's take trail left (west) to Retardant- Must do's- Red Tide 5.10-, Seven Sea's 5.7 (require's a few pieces), Continue up trail to Special Spot- Must do's- The Javelin 5.10- classic, Opening Ceremonies 5.9 From Clem's take the trail to the right (East) Nut House- Must do's- State of Dillusion 5.10- (requires small rack), Pistachio Pillar 5.10+ (not in guide), Chalk Treatment 5.10- (requires small rack), Committed 5.11+ (all gear but shares anchors with Chalk Treatment so it's a good TR may require a directional) continue up gully/trail to Puzzle Palace- Must do's- Perplexus 5.10, Cryptogram 5.9+. *4th of July Rock- 5.9-5.11 Must do's- Beer and Loafing 5.10- (small rack), Facelift 5.10-, One of the finest "sport" routes in Leavenworth, Just the Facts w/ Diving Diamondbacks finish- 5.11- *Pearly Gates-right side- Must do's-Veins of Glory 5.10-, Milky Way 5.9+, The Scene is Clean 5.8, The Dog Ate My Topo 5.7. Bring a rack and do Celestial Groove 5.9 One of the finest Leavenworth cracks! If you only have quickdraws Clem's Holler is your best bet. Hope this helps, good luck and have fun!

What a bunch of pawns.

Precious...

Perhaps not, but I only have 300 posts...

Prolly, that is far more "Richard Simmons".