Drederek

Have done the East Ridge twice. Once ten years ago and again this spring. Routefinding was fairly straightforward, stay on or near the ridge. Both times I went visibility was less than 100 feet. The first time our "guide" knew where the gully with the chockstone was (to reacquire the ridge) and we did some wonderful 4th class scrambling around it. The second time we had no "guide" and went up some other gully which turned into a wonderful 4th class slab, parts of which were fairly stable. One day I hope to do this route when there are no clouds and I can feel the exposure. I found the pictures in the guidebook more useful than the description although the clue about when to detour left and when to detour right seemed accurate. Have only descended east face and was glad to have axe along.

Mneagle, sounds very cool. Was routefinding as easy as you make it sound? Is the 11c pitch of Borderline as hard as Perry's Lieback (Grand Wall)? I'd love to give that a go!

AYCE, Its called prejudice. We are not alone. You decide.

"If it were easy they'd train monkeys to do it and we all be out of a job" Some asshole I used to work for.

We all have ability to go into the mountains and be ourselves. If we are poor or rich, experienced or not. If we are going to let what others think of us enhance or diminish our experiences we are either posers or insecure losers. I'm going to have a great time whether I'm in killer cotton or NF goretex.

Yeah Magic Light - Smith Tried Penguins in Bondage once. Didn't have the gumption that day. Maybe this weekend. . .

The Split Pillar (right side) - Squamish Last pitch The Grand Wall - Squamish Blue Crack pitch on Dreamer - Green Giant All of the handcrack on Outer space - Leavenworth Psychopath - Leavenworth Gangsters, Rattlesnake rock - Leavenworth Pitch 2 Davis-Holland - Index Pitch 1 Lovin Arms - Index George & Martha - Vantage That thing next to it (TR) - Vantage The Price of Complacency - Royal Columns (on Tieton) Imperial Master - Royal Columns Inca Roads - Royal columns The whole middle wall at The Cave (on Tieton) The Land Down Under - Beehive (on Tieton) Wildcat Crack - Wildcat Cliff (on Tieton) Battle of the bulge - Fossil Rock Room with a View - Fossil Rock Rainy Day Women - Little Si Aborigine - Little Si Digitalis - Little Si Last pitch Zebra/Zion - Smith BarBQ the Pope - Smith Toxic - Smith Vomit Launch - Smith Moons of Pluto - Smith

Yeah some posts have bothered me too. I don't believe threats have a place here. But I am unsure about placing limits on others. I have noticed that many climbers (myself included) like to go past limits. Up until last sunday my limit on Dreamer was nine pitches, now its ten. Before july I had never been higher than the top of Liberty Bell and now I've been to the top of Mt Rainier. I am content with no longer leading R rated pitches at my skill level. I have found a limit that I can live with for now. But someone else may be just warming up on those R rated pitches and want more. I guess I don't think I have the right to tell people they can't do something just because I don't like it. I guess I would support challenging people to behave better but not telling them to.

For twelve bucks I'll bet she doesn't have much gumption, self esteem and is extremely ugly. The gym may not be your worst option!

It seems "great minds think alike" er sorry you other guys. I forgot to mention finding womens lingerie on the hike in to Dreamer. Does that help? Also have done OS and MJD in a day (Orbit was jammed). Walking the descent twice sucked!

Most guidebooks rate OS one star better than D. I think that may be wrong. Both rated 5.9. The particulars (as I see it): Drive to OS 2/3 freeway 1/3 highway with views. D 3/4 freeway with closeup views. OS by a nose. Parking breakins OS-1 D-0. D. Hike OS Dry, steep 70 min. D moist, 2/3 flat, 1/3 steep 75 min + bonus waterfalls. D easily. 3rd class scramble to base. OS most of pitch one & two . D 150+ meters. D again. Pitches OS 6+ D 10 D one more time. Awesome handcrack OS 300 feet D 30 feet. OS for sure. Exposure similar. Summit OS goat infested campsite. D knife edge ridge with entirely new views. D. Descent OS 30 min scramble. D 60 min rap with rope eating crack. OS, especially if you don't see the REC. Views OS acres of granite slopes and towers, LW. D acres of granite slopes and towers, no towns and many peaks in the N Cascades. D once more. Partiess seen on route at one time by me OS 6 D 3. D comes thru again. By my count Dreamer wins 8 to 4. Feel free to disagree.

How about in the the Bathtub?

The boy looks almost Tragically Hip to me. I'll bet he can hear the Salmon Song. That ain't Vantage!

Mattp, by low traverse meant the start you recommended to Dreamer by doing 2+ pitches of Safe Sex. Loved that start. I am pretty sure there were hangers on the steep slab. I skipped belay at top of SS #3 and tried to make the next anchors (SS #4) but couldn't so I put some slings on the upper bolt and did a hanging belay near the bottom bolt. (BTW this was about this time last year). After that went up a loose shallow flakey system 20 feet or so then traversed under a roof to dreamer middle of #6. I don't know if this makes any more sense than my original post. Would love to see the rest of SS. Even if work is involved. E-mail me at Dersan40@hotmail.com. About a 50\50 chance I'll be there wednesday to do Dreamer.

Congratulations Dan. I have found the hills a much healthier addiction. Safer and cheaper too!

Matt, Your topo is way better than the others. Both times I've been on Dreamer I've been unsure of where I was but now I think I could do the whole route. Thanks. The first time we started up SS and missed the low traverse. We did the beauty crack leading to the steep slab with hangerless bolts (they had hangers then). didn't traverse over till under the roof below the "blue"(?) crack. This was a little scary on thin semirotten flakes, mostly because there was a party below us (they were on route but in line for rockfall). The next time we made the low traverse from SS and stayed on solid rock. If we had passed the fixed pin at the start and kept going left would we be onroute? Or would we cross lower? Is the direct start worthy? We ran out of time and didn't do the top pitch so as long as I'm going back I would like to do it all. I would also recommend rapping the SS anchors as our rope got stuck underneath a slab near the bottom of Dreamer.

Matt, You are good at angling in on the hard questions. Some ff my opinions: One of the obvious benefits/detractions of bolted belay stations is it makes them obvious. You don't have to think about where to set your belay you just blindly flail away till you reach or dyno for the chains. I would not have as large a rack if people didn't back off stuff when it got too hard, too late or whatever. I have had to leave a few things over the years too. One of the things that was neat about learning to climb at Castle Rock was that it was a serious place- you might have to set up your own anchor and trust your partner to do the same. Rapelling was taught to me as being the most dangerous option for getting down. Ever had a rope thrown down on you while leading Classic Crack? As far as grading the ability of FA'ers placements the guys I know that put up routes are always asking about the ones they're unsure of. I do believe they get moved sometimes. I don't know why not to if the rock can be patched to match. If we have to have bolts lets have as few as necessary and do what we can to put them in the right places.

So how do we convince those who want some of the danger taken out of a climb that the inherent danger is a vital part of the climb? I would think a climb named "Dan's Dreadful Direct" should be bold. Or what would we think of Dan? I support the actions taken to remove the bolts. I also believe the bolters thought they were doing a good thing. We all have our visions of what climbing means to us. And we all want to pursue our visions. It is hard to pursue your vision and respect everybody elses position at the same time. It takes experience and sometimes trial and error to learn what will fly and what will not. We partake of a very selfish and narcissistic sport where egos abound. Thank God for the differences! D

Thanks for the info Viktor and thanks to Jim also. I believe you're right about GRTC and I think I may have known that before I drove home sunday. Any clues to the grades of Jim's routes?

My wife sends me on sentry duty but only to warn her so she can get decent if someone comes by. I never really thought of asking people to stop. I have asked for directions though!

Did a couple of nice little routes yesterday that were not in the guide surmounting the little roof to the right of stolen thunder. I guess one of these is GRTC. They were bolted in what I would deem "Icicle" style. The left one seemed a bit harder. One of our party got very excited when I told her the right one might be 5.10 as she had never completed one before. Anyone else think so? Also the OW left of these two routes was a great 5.6!

So lets set up a scale. I'll say the first two pitches of Freedom rider is a 2 or 3 and the last few pitches of outer space a 9 for rock quality.

Jason, Is that the obvious splitter crack? The Beckey guide says something about a tension traverse out of the top of it? It sure looks sweet!

Think they had green backs and were about the size of your hand. Long thin beaks.

Freedom rider, only a way to get past aiding the bottom of liberty crack. It does have a couple nice pitches. Have you done Medusa Roof? Have heard add three letter grades to pitches on T&C.