Peter_Puget

Honestly I didn't expect the impossible ;-)

Well I received a two PMS that pretty much tell it all: from the Cap'tn:I am going to chop all the bolts you put in. From Mr. X:If you are curious about new routes, primarily in the Leavenworth area. I will give you some info via. personal email. Another case where the site looses out do to negativity. In response to those wondering why routes weren't posted: (see another thread) some people I have talked to pretty much fit in with Matt's respone but a most I talked to simply do not want to report here because they choose to give the site no legitimacy. People are choosing not to post not because they are scare of the "big monsters" here but as I said before they are disgusted by the people posting here. Pope (AKA I have not come to bury the well respected NW climber but to praise him) ask Respected PNW climber how nice you are. First you say "I wont remove your bolts" then you help instigate a series of threads bashing him then when the bashing gets really hot you comeout in a series of lame posts supporting him. Maybe I should should open up a pychoanalytic couch similar to your confessional. Come on the Dr. is in! All in all and great show of negativity and as someone else said in a post not too long ago .."slimey" Dru, from DDD restored page 2:"And why don't you fix those topos for Castle Rock; they suck" There are other similar quotes but Ill let you find them. By the way, I neglected to thank you for your support yesterday the the "kettle" is certainly black! Cavey - Seems surpising that you are concerned with the truth in your post exchange with lambone after telling express untruths about my comunication in PMs to third parties. I am still waiting for a refutation of my logic. Peter

No not wanting to argue just wondering about his thinking process. I am convinced it is in error. But willing to learn from my betters.

Dan - I'd say the ego is involved in all 4 stages you mentioned. I am no new route master but I have made several FAs over the years. Some I told my friends about right away and I looked forward to their reporting back - hoping of course they liked it. Others I have chosen not to report. Routes in this class were done at some areas in CA which at the time lacked a guidebook. Part of the fun of that area was the sense of exploration. Oddly the area has been documented now and most of our routes weren't included! Despite being, at least in our minds, obvious lines. As far as vegetation being a non issue. It is far from it. Vegetation growing on rocks is often significant issue. I believe that destruction of vegetation on the rock was a significant issue at the crags along I-90 as well as at Index. It has also been an issue at many other locations throughout the US. Lichens once removed can take years to reform this fact has been used effectively many times by anti climbing advocates. Anti climbing advocates have also noted the visual impact of scrubbed lines at Index but more importantly at least in this forum in the Icicle canyon itself.

Retro - It's easy to criticize your action because they are so wrong. But tell me since it appears that my track record is important in my appearent criticism your actions how exactly does that work? I'll ge tthe ball rolling: 1 I am a mad bolter and rap bolt all the time. 2 I am an experienced trad climber with balls of steel and I never clip bolts. 3 I am a DFW manager walking along the base and see obviously damaged hangers. Three situations different background tell me how the differing background in each situation will make an analysis of your action easier or more difficult. Remember we are not talking about the form of the conclusion here but simply the difficulty of the process.

The asymmetrical reporting of customer service complaints cannot serve as a rational basis for analysis. I joined the VW earlier this year and a week later while climbing outside heard “Hi Peter” turned around and saw woman smiling on her way past. We traded beta and she wondered off. Only later did I realize that she was the VW employee who administered the belay test. Beyond the initial post which I am sure arose from a true sense of frustration with customer service, the post linking the VW to prostitution simply is derogatory in nature. As far as preservation of the “museum” - if the point of the posts was simply to inform, they could have been made with less bravado. As a friend of mine pointed out the other day the threads related to DDD were like something out of Lord of the Flies. It is not simply a case of people being afraid of being attacked by “spray dogs” but that there is an unremitting negativity that permeates the site. It is an uncontrovertible fact that people with real valuable info and yes, even humor, are avoiding this site because of the behavior exhibited on it. True, the postings do give the site its personality but that is a mere tautology. It’s the personality itself that is being decried. It is throwing a red herring into the mix to say that it is important not turn CC.com into a sterile reporting environment. Clearly no one is advocating that. What is wrong and contemptible is a poster with multiple identities, some of them existing only to foment trouble, posting to this thread under their “voice of reason persona.” What is wrong is a person with a reputation for smashing hangers flat on routes at Vantage promoting the removal of the DDD bolts as arising from a respect for environment and tradition. These specific items have been pointed out to me by people while I was encouraging to post to CC.com as reasons why they chose not to. It’s precisely because the site is not representative enough of “western society” that there is a problem.

Dru - Many have said Viktor's guide was good after the comments stating how bad the drawings were made. For starters one of Retro's posts was patently offensive in his treatment of Viktor. Perhaps I shouldn't have said shitty but my intent was to conjure up the dismissive tone of the original posts. Don't worry about the kids I put the site on the ban list. I see negativity but more importantly others such as MattP and those we have spoken to see it too. So while I'll generally agree with the " depends on if the glass is half empty or half full" way of looking at things, I do not think it is responsive to the case being made here. Cavey - help me out. Earlier I asked about how the logic of my aurgument would change. (as an aside: I have not complained about the responses I have recieved to my post with the one exception of mentioning that some actions attributed to me were clearly false) Explain to me how "half of your argument does not even fit this subject above.. Duh!" Please start by delineating the two halves. Maybe Pope could help out by applying some of Richard v Mises' theories concerning statistics.

Tell me how the logic of my aurgument changes if my identity is known? Someone pointed out that even the most rabid overbolters produced 5 good lines for every bad one. An while that ratio might be subject to debate I would like to hear about the other 5! I would like Viktor to be able to post without being told how shitty his guidebook is. I would like my kids to be able to view this site without me feeling a sense of embaressment.

In general Mark hits the nail on the head BUT I would ask him and those non posters who happen to read this to consider that their posts are important and part of the solution. It's not just the threatening or mean spirited (Interview with a Well Respected..)posts but the general tone. For example: Washington guidebooks suck thread - or - Vertical world employees are rude threads. I know many people who have good information concerning existing routes as well as info regarding new or recent FAs. They refuse to release information to this web site. Since I know them and know the information is good I can't help wonder what other info is out there but hidden by those people I do not know. My guess is that there is a ton of great stuff we are all missing! To paraphrase: Posts aren't killing this site people are.

Although sometimes I have fallen short of being as nice as I should be, it should be noted that anonymity does nothing to ameliorate the derisive tone of a posting. In addition, in one exchange, clear lies concerning my actions were posted by someone who has reveiled his identity. Give me an example of when I threatened someone or lied in a post? Those who frequent here - especially the post-a-maniacs- enjoy the CC.com atmosphere. I believe the point Matt was making is that the site could be so much more in terms of humor and information if more people felt like they WANTED to contribute. I do not think they feel excluded or intimated. They are simply repulsed by the behavior often exhibited here. [This message has been edited by Peter Puget (edited 08-09-2001).]

I agree with Matt. There is a distinct difference between joking and threats or mean spirited derision.

Here are a couple of tricks I learned from a Great Pacific Iron Works Cat. years ago. I think the writer was Dale Bard. At least while practicing hand jams try not to use your fingers but instead rely on the palm and back of the hand. Of course in those difficult jams you'll use everything you have. The link was pretty good but think that one comment was confusing. It's not difficult to reach far with and then place thumb to the inside hand jam. What is hard is reaching past the thumb-in jam. Thumbs-in jams are usually better jams tho but you pay the price when your reaching for the next jam.

Ok I don't want to work so...here are some lesser known routes at Index that might be a bit scruffy now but at least when I climbed them were fun: Inner Wall: Corner Flash 5.7 hand to wide hands Happy Puppy 5.8/9 Hand to chimney GN Slab Top Rope the first part of Lizaed 5.8 Winkie Dinkie CLiff Timberjack 5.8 lieback Mid Wall Robins Ramp 5.7 plus it's easy to TR some short cracks at the bottom. Plum Puddin 5.9 finger crack lieback easy to hang on gear if you get tired. And at the Fun Forest there are some easy things on the left side for TR'ing

I feel free to but I won't because you're right. For some reason Snow Creek Wall gets more aclaim than it deserves. And I would add that looking back on it I have much fonder memories of Orbit than OS.

Since we are on a Nietzsche kick I thought the following quotes seemed appropriate to the postings here at CC.com: “The most common modes of expression are: ..to mock, to destroy... Paraphrased: The strength of our knowledge doesn't lie in truth, but tradition and old moldy volumes..”even mold enobles."

Like the title of the thread says: I was just being a Wise-ass!

Here's one more applicable to our favorite subject: When in doubt consult tradition If still in doubt consult your friends If still in doubt consult your conscience

I can second hollyclimber's Seattle Ortho & Fracture Clinic. When I finally decided to seek help for my own shoulder injury I asked for many recomendations and consistantly the SOFC came up as highly rated and specifically Dr. Peterson. I ended up seeing Dr. Wilson there and am mor ethna happy with the results of my surgery. Seems like 3 months isn't a very long time however.

Your are misinterpreting basic inability to articulate with a willfull obscurantism. But better an honest effort at communication than mere sloganeering.

Given the controversy generated by many climbers it appears that it is indeed not an inherent part of the climbing experience, or if it is, it is of such a general meaning that it is meaningless. Any group intending to have along life (eg climbing) cannot disregard the general trends of society or of competing groups. Clearly many climbers do not find bolting distasteful at all - witness the many posts at this site - also just as clear many find bolting distasteful. The controversy generated by bolting is ALONE sufficient to cause a remedy to be sought without any appeal to spurious traditions or projections of ones personal climbing experience.

Dwayner - Let us say that at least for aurgument's sake I agree with you regarding clean climbing not being an irelevant tradition how does that affect what I have said? Logically it doesn't! And by the way in the early 70's one of the places I learned to lead was at Lover's Leap in CA. Virtually no bolts had been placed there at the time and the area was promoted as a place that should be boltless. Several years ago I returned to the area after an almost 20 year absense and was dismayed by the number of bolts and "sport" routes that covered the cliff. At least with regard to this cliff I share your dismay at what modern tactics have wrought. The clean climbing campaign was short in duration and was forgotten as soon as sport climbing appeared. As a tradition its existense is at best tenuous. (Otherwise why was it alsways so heavily promoted?) Why do we need it to be part of a climbing "tradition"? Shouldn't care for the enviroment exist outside of our climbing experience?

A standard of conduct only has relevancy in a particular social context. For example the shunning of lepers was reasonable conduct before the operation of the Mycobacterium Leprae was know. Similarly rules regulating the operation of motor vehicle so as to minimize the “spooking” of draught animals also made sense at one time. My sense is that many of the traditions in climbing are as outdated as these two examples. While they may help to connect us with a romantic ideal their continued irrelevancy only contributes to ongoing conflict and controversy. Matt has brought up several good examples where the “FA rules” guide leads us to an obvious conflict with common sense. Even in Toulumne meadows, one of the last bastions of the traditional viewpoint, Bachar’s free solos of new routes were after a time ignored and the “accepted” FA using bolts for protection occurred after the real FA Simply put the traditions of the past do not automatically serve us well in the present. By limiting the retro bolt issue to specific routes and the arcane trivia associated with them it is easy to loose sight of the bigger picture and limits development of a new consensus. As far as rap routes on Snow Creek Wall, I climbed Iconoclast/Edge combination a couple of weeks ago and counted almost twenty rap stations to the left of the Iconoclast corner. The sum total of these anchors is without a doubt many times more of an eyesore than dozens of camouflaged chain anchors. Considering that many of these rap anchors are old pins, crappy flakes, or small trees they are also death traps waiting to be sprung. This said I must agree with retro that OS doesn’t really need a fixed rap installation but I wouldn’t be outraged if it was put in place.

The route near the old aid line requires some trad place pro as well. Dolomite tower is nowhere near 3,000' Approach makes the route somewhat less than desirable at least for me after checking out the approach earlier this year.

Yossarian, I think we all should want as many active climbers using this site as possible. The greater the number of active climbers posting and reviewing this site the better it will become. AND I bet the improvement in terms of information and even entertaining banter will prove to be geometric not arithmetic. To the extent discussions go over the edge and make people resistant to participating we all suffer. My guess is that several today’s postings will drive people away.

How easy is it to repair an Alien?