Peter_Puget

I couldn’t resist throwing in my two cents worth into this thread. I agree that the Antagonizer is a bit over the top and despite being of a heritage that would be considered a target of his derogatory remarks, think that my biggest complaint isn’t with his potential impact on someone’s personal sense of well-being but rather how the penumbra of such remarks affects the site in general. Less egregiously offensive words and comments (e.g. fuck, pussy, bend over bi..) probably cast a more permanent and probably far darker shadow. Perhaps it would be possible to use some sort of censor function that will filter out posts containing offensive language.

Why don't people give their suggestion as to the "correct" ratings for the sandbags?

Mattp – You bring up a good point with regard to ratings. I lead the Aries Chimney when a 5.9 lead took all day to get psyched up for and cams weren’t around. In the last few weeks I lead several sport climbs in good style in the 5.11 range yet (head hung low as I write this) I grabbed pieces on every 5.9 traditional lead I attempted last weekend. One of the greatest things about climbing is the diversity of skills and experiences available. The ironic aspect is that as I have climbed less and less my decreased overall skill level encourages me to climb routes with a higher YDS difficulty that require a narrow skill set. (ie sport routes!) This is of course exacerbated by the general trend for soft rating on many of these routes as well.

Metolius will fix their own cams. Haven't had them do anything for awhile but in past they have been quick and cheap. http://metoliusclimbing.com/specs_cammaintenance.htm. Not sure about Trango.

Years ago I made new trigger assemblies for the old style Friends at the Crow's Nest in Seattle. I also made lots of head there as well. Never had a swage fail but I wouldn't trust the swage enough for anything other than heads or triggers.

Dwayner – Thanks for the help! You’re right of course, the quote is no more passe than those arguments from years past against the use of ropes, piton cams or climbing specific training. Make the argument your authority not an appeal to something outside of it. I once received sage advice suggesting that I do not obfuscate. I would offer the followingvice: don't sloganeer. Rafael – Button heads can be good or bad making a generalization as to their quality difficult. But as the years go by they will of course start to approach 100% unreliability. I would say that 1/4” SS are always a terrible choice. In my experience, the metal seems to be too brittle for that size anchor. Weird and insecure hand cracks should be bolted as you would any crack – every three to four feet. “Disclaimer” -that last part about bolting cracks was a joke.

Def:"Status Quo" = Existing state of affiars. Messner's quote: approximately 30 years old - not in reference to "sport" climbing. To help new climbers put the quote in context.

If someone is bolting, they should know how to do it correctly. If some is relying on bolts, they should know what they are relying on. The Fish site is loaded with good info esp. concerning testing existing bolts. I have seen several examples in Washington where, considering only the bolt/anchor setup, it appears as if a total goofball designed and placed the installation. What is pathetic is when a sensible inquiry is ridiculed. Cavey - Damn your onto me! How did you figure out PP was a pen name? PM your address to me and I'll send you a copy of an old Yakima Guide as long as you promise not to reveal anymore of my secrets!

Check out Fishproducts.com. There is lots of good bolting info located there. Most bolts are put in via fairly imprecise mehtods. This is esp. true with bolt placed using the ole' flinstone rigs.

Good report. That peak has been on my "check out" list for a decade and I have been too lazy to check it out. In fact about a month ago from another nearby peak I was checking it out thinking someday. Some nearby granite I have climbed on was quite featured as in knobs dikes and such. What was the granite like? Post some pics! Now that you've beat me to it I'll have to put a "sanction" out on you!

Hate to be a cynic but the bottom of her tummy is cut off.

Well having climbed with Donini and Dick I can say that 999 times out of 1000 if one of the two was thrashing it would be Jim. True Dick was often timid on leads in days gone by but I have seen him make many a bold lead especially in more recent times. But one lead in particular (Yosemite early 80s) was amazing. He hadn't lead all summer, just bouldered, he was past the crux (wich was about 40 off the deck 11c)a tad bit over 100 feet out placed a piece andthought "I need more gear." He then down climbed the whole route including the crux to get more gear. The route until that point had several other hard sections as well. Truely inspiring! I have also climbed a few times with Tim years ago and agree he is an outstanding climber but at least for rock considering every style of climbing possible(ie offwidth, slab, fist crack and so on) and my money would be on Dick. Last time I talked with Dick we discussed this site and despite the insults thrown at him he had had good things to say about everyone as we tried to figure out who was who. Not sure I'd like to be judged by all my actions in the past esp. those that happened a "generation" ago!

Seems more like the state of WA a generation ago! Yikes! A 20' cliff, a 100 foot trail, a handful and mediocre routes and a generation passing - that littel ole cliff is near and dear to your heart. Maybe you should be thanking Dick for the memories!

Hmmm I know Dick admits to being abrasive at times plus didn't I say he was the best climber in the state the moment he crossed the state line? Seems like a compliment to me. Now play nice!

Hey Will and Chongo While I am critcizing Twight for his Commercialism you have brought up a good point regarding his contributions to "extreme alpinism" I ask you both: in what way has he (other than staying alive) advanced extreme alpinism more than Alex MacIntyre?

Dru so right and (all you Twight fans will like this one)and ideal for living!

Truely Dick could be abrasive sometimes but what use to really get me was when he said "The moment I crossed the state line I became the best climber in the state." Of course the worst part about that was that it was true! His more recent staterment equally true was "no one has ever doen a hard boulder problem in WA."

I have to agree with Mattp on this one. And feel more than qualified to slam Tyson for his many plainly antisocial acts. Beyond any accomplishments Twight has become part and parcel to the big media/commerce BS campaign that is so often lamented on this site. Ian Curtis is surely spinning in his grave! Andre Gide is thinking "couldn't I have been more understandable?" But given that risk, from an experiential perspective, is all perception, I believe many times a year some novice climbing bursts thru Twight's comfort zone and lives on the edge in a truley sponteneous and uncontrived manner. Several have said until you've climbed like Twight how can you criticize? I say "how can you judge if somebody hasn't already climbed beyond Twight!"

I meant pure in the sense that you can concentrate "purely on the act of climbing" not on danger - not on protection - not on rope drag...... I agree that if TRing was the only form of climbing we'd be loosing out on alot.

Dru -Must be that pernicious British influence! Cast off those colonial shackles!

Dru - Good point about long climbs. I think that a promotion of TRs solve many problems but not all of them. I do know that at least one person in Wa has made a multi pitch TR route. It exists at Banks Lake and when faced with bolting in an fairly pristine enviroment he placed anchors at the top of the formation and at another location lower down. Climbed each pitch and said "why place bolts?" and left it as a TR. Eddie - Hmmm my point went right thru you! I didn't say I favored anything except sometimes TRing over placing fixed gear. Seems like its the smart thing to do!

It seems like all posters here are in agreement that “bolt smashing” is an unjustified action. I could go on to say even more cutting comments about the perpetrators of such actions and their possible motivations but feel that to do so would be like discussing morals with a two year old. Instead I would offer my meager and confused suggestions as to what the vast majority of the climbing “community” can do to help reduce situations like this from resulting. The first is the obvious don’t place bolts where reasonable protection is available using traditional methods. The second is a bit more oblique but I feel more important. Namely: promote the validity of TR ascents. After all, assuming a good anchor, protection is always good on a TR and the climbing is more pure in the sense of not having to clip bolts or place protection. Others have appealed to some lost “tradition” as a means to limit the impact of bolting or the mass appeal of climbing. I have often derided that notion. In other threads, posters have derided the commercialization of climbing in such magazines as Climbing or through retailers as REI. I would say that one of the means that this “commercialization” has taken place is the appeal to tradition while simultaneously abandoning some of the essential elements supporting it. One of these areas has been in glorifying the lead. The “idealized lead” of old usually included the following factors: on site, no hangs, leader placing protection. As such they were much more difficult. If you’ve never worked a climb at your limit without hanging dog tactics try it sometime. I am sure you’ll agree it is much more difficult and time consuming! (I say this as an unrepentant hang dogger myself!) Now in order to “sell climbing” the romantic ideal of the lead was stripped of its more limiting cofactors. A coincidental development was the improvements in camming devices which greatly eased the difficulty/seriousness of many cracks. But the real area of promotion was “sport” climbing. What is being sold is damaged goods! Sport climbing is wonderful, fun, exciting and a million other great things. I am not deriding Sport climbing as such. What I am negatively critical of is the seemingly unquenchable thirst for new leads it engenders. I look forward to the day when the “most difficult route in the world” makes it to the cover of climbing as a TR.

Don't fall because you're afraid of falling

Maybe not the best but these routes generate the fondest meories for each of their areas. Old Grey Mare - Castle Rock ROTC - Midnight Rock Japanese Gardens/10% - Index Perfidous Albion – Squamish Spider Man – Smith Blown Out - Beacon

Dru you beat me to it! I signed off thinking: "great report why didn't I post something saying that." When I got back on I saw your message.