Peter_Puget

Beacon has some great routes. Unfortunately Smoot's guide does leave out a bunch of them. You might try the library for Olsen's guide to Portland Rock Climbs. I think it's available in local shops (seattle)as well. Haven't climbed the newer routes but Blown Out/Second Wind is/was a great route. There really is a steep section of rock. And the rock is 1000 times better than the columns of Yakima and Vantage.

Mr. Rat you are simply wrong with regard to the fact that there are no bail slings above the bottom of the first "10c" pitch. The remains of an sling-back-off anchor are located just right of the bolts atop this pitch. Of course if your statement is limited to the location of the current useable sling-rap-stations is true but meaningless given the fact that higher up the corner people would just use the bolt anchors. Slappy as I tried to suggest above and in a different way in my response to Pope, these guys are not interested in what anyone else thinks. The are not interested in the so called climbing community. They are more concerned with their position within the argument rather than the argument itself. Using our friend Retro as an example: In an earlier response to a post of mine he admitted to flattening hangers on a route at Vantage. He said he did it because he removed the bolts several times and they kept returning. Of course doing the right thing which was remove them again and again didn't appeal to him, so he chose to flatten the hangers. My rejoinder to his post was a series of questions asking how different people passing by might view the vandalized hangers. Of course it takes no imagination at all to realize the bads ways land managers could view such action. To make his point quickly he was willing to fuck up all climbers relationship with land managers! Cavey made a post saying I couldn't force Retro to argue. He was right. Someone asked a reasonable question regarding bolt placements and look at the insulting replies. Make no mistake these guys aren't heroes and I am more and more convinced their motivations are not based on anything other than vanity expressing itself thru the lens of "proper ethics". I am against alot of what has become grid bolting and was for the removal of the DDD bolts; however, the guys posting here are so full of BS that it's amazing. Look at Rat for example and his comments regarding slings - they are clearly incorrect. I was very frustrated this morning when I saw that this thread had turned into another BS bolt diatribe that I couldn't even return to it until after work. To the extent that the rock is a shared resource climbers must act acording to a shared sense of what is proper behavior. Retro and his kind just want to impose their will on all others. No attempt at persuasion is even attempted - no greater form of contempt for others can be shown. It is this contempt that shines so brightly in all their posts that I find so offensive. Thank goodness someone started a thread about kids in the outdoors so I was brought back to reality as to why I climb in the first place.

I regret writing in a haphazard manner earlier today. My hasty sentence construction suggested that Retro’s post I was incorporating was his last. It was by no means his ‘last’ post but rather the first paragraph of his great work “Dan’s Dreadful Direct Restored.” Also I neglected to incorporate by reference Pope’s post of 9/18/01 to the thread “How to properly install a bolt…?” This will make my marks regarding the sexualization of these posts more cogent.

A word from someone whose parents got him into the outdoors and climbing: Many times I have thanked my parents for introducing me to the outdoors. I remember my older sister absolutely hated going to the mountains. She would scream and fight at the thought of every trip, so my parents often modified our plans to accommodate her. On the otherhand, I always loved going. The funny thing is that now I live in the city and she lives in the Sierra Nevada mountains with climbing all around! I am not saying that kids should be forced merely that sometimes a seed grows where you least expect it to. As for my experience with my kids, I think Dan’s comments sum it up better than I could.

I did it sometime ago and think you'll have a blast. My partner and I were trying to do it as fast as we could so we brought minimal food a rain jacket and a small pad. We left Stevens ( which as someone said earlier is very ugly) I would do it that way again mostly because we hiked most of the less pretty sections at night but also because if for some reason we would want to bail (eg injury or rain) exiting via Salmon La Sac is an easy option. If you are in shape it should be a piece of cake over a weekend. I would love to hike the other sections of the WA PCT in the same manner. Let us know how it goes.

As far as the anchors go not sure when they were put in but immediately to the right were remnants of old slings. Without a doubt the bolts with short lengths of chain are vastly preferable. In fact looking towards Orbit, the cliff is littered with rap slings in various states of decay. Since the alternative (slings) is a greater visible scar. I would say that they should not be removed. In fact the masses of fixed slings lower on Iconoclast are something of a mess as well. Be careful you don't become know as the "Ken Nichols" of Wenatchee. Instead of writing semi-erotic tales of bolt chopping (see below) try a well reasoned argument to persuade others of your viewpoint. I have noticed that the predominant "anti bolters" are all middle aged and seem to write with this expressly sexual style. Could it be an underlying pathology expressing itself thru this issue? Excerpt from Retro's previous post:"It made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside as I levered out the first bolt. And a powerful sense of satisfaction came over me as I hacksawed the bottom bolt and hammered the stump of the stud back into the hole." By the way thinking I might have been a bit strident with my Iconoclast remarks, I'll add this comment: despite the fact I thought the route was VERY mediocre the guy I climbed it with has done the route five times. [This message has been edited by Peter Puget (edited 09-19-2001).]

Forget the "confessional" I'm bringing out the analyst's couch! "proper lady, not a whore" "you meet the mountain on her terms" "gun to a fist fight" "hand drill in holster" "GOD['s DAMN[ation]" "hook and drill" "YOU CRAP YOUR PANTS" "preserved the challenge for somebody who has developed the necessary skills" "protection from the bottom up" What an amazing combination of the profane and the sacred, of aggression and submission. Combining the Madonna/whore idea with homoeroticism. And the wrap-up offering a chance for redemption. Your post makes me realize how many facets of the climbing experience I've been missing.

While I am not convinced this is a good site for this discussion I must ask exactly what is meant by the term innocent when used in the above posts?

Haven’t done Hyperspace but here is my review of Iconoclast. Despite being hyped in previous guides Iconoclast is a completely mediocre route with sections of dirty poor quality rock. It was so unenjoyable that I took Hyperspace off my list. If viewed as a separate route the first few pitches would make a fairly enjoyable 5.9 route but still not a four star route. Friends who have done Hyperspace think my poor impression of the route would have continued had I. I was very disappointed with Iconoclast but would agree that it is harder than the Grand Wall. To be fair I should note some of my friend love Hyperspace climbing it at least once every year. Getting to the ledge is omitted. A – Original Route (5.8): Climb left past a bolt to a corner which is then followed to a belay at a large horn. B “Psychopath” (5.11b): Climb the obvious crack. From the crux to the top this pitch is difficult to protect and can be a bit grainy. The crux is closer to face climbing than crack. Belay at the horn described in variation “A”. TCUs very helpful. 1. (5.8/9) Climb up and right past dirty rock to an obvious handcrack leading through a overhang. A blocky belay ledge is reached shortly after turning the overhang. 2. (5.10D) Ascend the corner to a bolt belay slightly below a small tree. This pitch is dirty, contains funky rock and has mediocre and generally small protection. It fairly continuously difficult as well. TCUs helpful. 3. (5.10C) Continue up the corner until it is possible to clip a bolt on the right wall. Note this corner is contain small tree bushes. From here move up and right to the arete formed by the outside edge of the corner. Turn the corner and continue up knobs passing a bolt. After the second bolt on this pitch there is a 30’-40’ runout with a 5.7 move immediately before the belay. Small runners can be used to tie-off some of the knobs. 4. (5.8/9) Climb a handcrack in a LFC to anchors on the left side of Library Ledge. From here it is best to either join Edge of Space or Outer Space. The bolted finish to Iconoclast proper has old bolts and climbs through the dirtiest part of the face. With a 200’ foot rope I have heard that it is possible to combine pitches 3 & 4. From Library ledge there are several ways to finish the route.

After being stranded in CA, feverish and tired I pulled into Seattle intent on getting home ASAP when I noticed a Cascadeclimbers.com sticker on a nearby car! By the time I pulled into my driveway I had convinced myself it wasn’t real - but was it?

I couldn’t resist throwing in my two cents worth into this thread. I agree that the Antagonizer is a bit over the top and despite being of a heritage that would be considered a target of his derogatory remarks, think that my biggest complaint isn’t with his potential impact on someone’s personal sense of well-being but rather how the penumbra of such remarks affects the site in general. Less egregiously offensive words and comments (e.g. fuck, pussy, bend over bi..) probably cast a more permanent and probably far darker shadow. Perhaps it would be possible to use some sort of censor function that will filter out posts containing offensive language.

Why don't people give their suggestion as to the "correct" ratings for the sandbags?

Mattp – You bring up a good point with regard to ratings. I lead the Aries Chimney when a 5.9 lead took all day to get psyched up for and cams weren’t around. In the last few weeks I lead several sport climbs in good style in the 5.11 range yet (head hung low as I write this) I grabbed pieces on every 5.9 traditional lead I attempted last weekend. One of the greatest things about climbing is the diversity of skills and experiences available. The ironic aspect is that as I have climbed less and less my decreased overall skill level encourages me to climb routes with a higher YDS difficulty that require a narrow skill set. (ie sport routes!) This is of course exacerbated by the general trend for soft rating on many of these routes as well.

Metolius will fix their own cams. Haven't had them do anything for awhile but in past they have been quick and cheap. http://metoliusclimbing.com/specs_cammaintenance.htm. Not sure about Trango.

Years ago I made new trigger assemblies for the old style Friends at the Crow's Nest in Seattle. I also made lots of head there as well. Never had a swage fail but I wouldn't trust the swage enough for anything other than heads or triggers.

Dwayner – Thanks for the help! You’re right of course, the quote is no more passe than those arguments from years past against the use of ropes, piton cams or climbing specific training. Make the argument your authority not an appeal to something outside of it. I once received sage advice suggesting that I do not obfuscate. I would offer the followingvice: don't sloganeer. Rafael – Button heads can be good or bad making a generalization as to their quality difficult. But as the years go by they will of course start to approach 100% unreliability. I would say that 1/4” SS are always a terrible choice. In my experience, the metal seems to be too brittle for that size anchor. Weird and insecure hand cracks should be bolted as you would any crack – every three to four feet. “Disclaimer” -that last part about bolting cracks was a joke.

Def:"Status Quo" = Existing state of affiars. Messner's quote: approximately 30 years old - not in reference to "sport" climbing. To help new climbers put the quote in context.

If someone is bolting, they should know how to do it correctly. If some is relying on bolts, they should know what they are relying on. The Fish site is loaded with good info esp. concerning testing existing bolts. I have seen several examples in Washington where, considering only the bolt/anchor setup, it appears as if a total goofball designed and placed the installation. What is pathetic is when a sensible inquiry is ridiculed. Cavey - Damn your onto me! How did you figure out PP was a pen name? PM your address to me and I'll send you a copy of an old Yakima Guide as long as you promise not to reveal anymore of my secrets!

Check out Fishproducts.com. There is lots of good bolting info located there. Most bolts are put in via fairly imprecise mehtods. This is esp. true with bolt placed using the ole' flinstone rigs.

Good report. That peak has been on my "check out" list for a decade and I have been too lazy to check it out. In fact about a month ago from another nearby peak I was checking it out thinking someday. Some nearby granite I have climbed on was quite featured as in knobs dikes and such. What was the granite like? Post some pics! Now that you've beat me to it I'll have to put a "sanction" out on you!

Hate to be a cynic but the bottom of her tummy is cut off.

Well having climbed with Donini and Dick I can say that 999 times out of 1000 if one of the two was thrashing it would be Jim. True Dick was often timid on leads in days gone by but I have seen him make many a bold lead especially in more recent times. But one lead in particular (Yosemite early 80s) was amazing. He hadn't lead all summer, just bouldered, he was past the crux (wich was about 40 off the deck 11c)a tad bit over 100 feet out placed a piece andthought "I need more gear." He then down climbed the whole route including the crux to get more gear. The route until that point had several other hard sections as well. Truely inspiring! I have also climbed a few times with Tim years ago and agree he is an outstanding climber but at least for rock considering every style of climbing possible(ie offwidth, slab, fist crack and so on) and my money would be on Dick. Last time I talked with Dick we discussed this site and despite the insults thrown at him he had had good things to say about everyone as we tried to figure out who was who. Not sure I'd like to be judged by all my actions in the past esp. those that happened a "generation" ago!

Seems more like the state of WA a generation ago! Yikes! A 20' cliff, a 100 foot trail, a handful and mediocre routes and a generation passing - that littel ole cliff is near and dear to your heart. Maybe you should be thanking Dick for the memories!

Hmmm I know Dick admits to being abrasive at times plus didn't I say he was the best climber in the state the moment he crossed the state line? Seems like a compliment to me. Now play nice!

Hey Will and Chongo While I am critcizing Twight for his Commercialism you have brought up a good point regarding his contributions to "extreme alpinism" I ask you both: in what way has he (other than staying alive) advanced extreme alpinism more than Alex MacIntyre?