Peter_Puget

Hey I agree that the picture is in bad taste. I would yank the thread given the ability. Why hasn’t it been removed is an even more vexing issue to me. It seems like such “moderation” would be easy. Certainly if the pic was turned into a poster and placed a bar chances are that the barkeep or a patron would remove it. Additionally, cheap shots and insults made to those who can defend themselves are no less acceptable. To decry Moutainman’s posting and not other posts shows a complete lack of empathy and imagination.

Replacing manky bolts (assuming their placement was valid in the first place) is always a good idea. It boggles my mind that there is even a question of it. Those who wish to enjoy the thrills of manky bolt ladders can use my soon to be released "weak as shit" 'biners. Until I find the proper liability insurance, their doubles can be purchased through retailers such as Lowes or Home Depot. Look for the fancy colored biners in a bin near where keys are made. PP

Lamb – I wasn’t accusing you of anything - just giving my opinion and asking for yours so I can better understand what you mean by “the character of the route should be somewhat preserved.” It seems that it could be argued that 1/4" bolts are in some sense a defective technology. As far as fixed gear: what if removing all the fixed gear made the route impossible to climb clean. What if it changed the rating to C5? Does the original rating of the route have any implication on the nature of the fixed gear that is acceptable? Erik – As far as the guy who placed the bad bolts – we should all give him a beer or two for all his efforts. Very few people seem to be willing to make much of an effort in helping to maintain routes. Feels bad? He shouldn’t! He went through a ton of work placing them and when he found out they were defective he posted a thread about them on Rec.climbing (where I first heard of this) and then had to listen to the internet BS machine crank up and slam him. I was amazed how much BS was thrown his way when he should have been praised. Your point on fixed gear is well made. PP

A nice new button head properly placed is, on a bolt ladder, as effectively bomber as bomber can be. I don’t think it is a case of making the route too bomber. The replacement protection should be a long-lived as possible. I say use 1/2” stainless. In fact I’d go so far as to say 3/8” is irresponsible. Besides if a stud does break it is possibly impossible to clean out, so over time the use of 1/4” will lead to more degrading of the route. The fixed gear throughout the non-bolted sections of the route clearly have changed the character vis-a-vis the FA time than the replacement of old bolts on a ladder. - both visually and difficulty wise. Yet where are the complaints? Question for Lambone: I just did a FA and by error placed a ton of defective bolts. Should the bolts be replaced with defective bolts? Good bolts? Does my opinion as FA matter? What if my opinion can’t be determined? PP

The real question is why a Squamish site has a groovy L-Worth route as its prize photo! Pope you are a youngster! The recent sporto controversy is nothing compared to the reaction when we first uncovered the top of Jello Tower! The fear was the trees we were chopping were going to take out a car on the highway.

What climb is this guy on? http://home.primus.ca/~dooley/climbing/stories/squishgrade.html

Hi, poptart here. Me and Bonzo headed over to 11W yesterday morning for a small gathering of the KTK and Ladies Auxiliary and Tea Circle in hopes of finding sunshine, clean granite, and no crowds. When we arrived at about 11:30, we found some sunshine, and no people! Thought we'd take advantage of the lack of gapers and head up to Purina Crag. Got a few routes in before the weather turned poopy on us. Wandered back down to the car, gazed blankly at the guidebook, and watched the weather vaccilate between overcast and rainy and dumb. Decided to trust the weather to continue to be stupid, and headed to town for some fine vittles at Gustav's. Feeling refreshed, we headed back up the Icicle to set up camp, and hopefully enjoy better weather Saturday. The Eightmile CG was full of RVs so we headed up near the Bridge Creek CG (BTW the gate is open to go up to 8mile and Colchuck THs) and set up camp. After an hour or so of smoky fire and blowing rain, we broke camp and headed to Rat's house. It was nice to sleep indoors since it poured all night long. The weather did not disappoint us, it was stupid as we thought it would. It was wet and crappy this morning, so we headed back to the other side of the hills. It was not raining at Index, but it smelled like it was about to. You know, the "wet" smell. Thanks to Rat for the hospitality, and I hope that the hordes of other cc.commers heading to 11W thought better of it, and went somewhere else. It is definitely early spring right now. See you at the gym this afternoon.

Trask, what do you care where it is? You won't show up, and you don't live in Tacoma!!

The thing is, NachoCheese, this is their life. Kind of pathetic, eh?

Ole Peter goes away for two days and misses out on a new thread on a new subject. Not to imitate my old friends Pope and Dwayner but let me tell you how it is: Bolting cracks! It’s a no no guys. Forgetting all so-called climbing traditions- it’s a no no because “climbers” have traditionally made representations to land managers that the use of bolts is/should be limited to situations where natural pro is unavailable. Now I can see where there couldbe large areas of gray but in 99% of the cases this is not the case. If unnecessary bolts were placed on Ingalls,I say get rid of them. The acceptance of truly unnecessary bolts merely shows that climbers cannot be self-regulating or are simply dishonest in their dealings with land managers. In any case it is an invitation to more regualtion. AND provides ammunition to those against climbing. I should say that I consider some fixed anchors as exceptions to this rule as do many land managers. For example,as a means to reduce erosion see fixed rappell points as a solution. Another example would be the rappel anchors off many popular alpine peaks. Think Prussick. A series of ugly slings. Wouldn’t a series of 1/2” SS anchors that would be discrete as well as lasting 30 years be preferable? I say yes. I know I have said this many times but AlpineK have you talked to those bad boys at Index or the Icicle. And if not, have you made attempts to? Dru - There is a special equation useful for determining whether or not a yo-yo is a valid ascent. So much like bolting it all depends. Peter

So Allison, you don't even mention me in the Pub Club TR. I thought that you wanted poptart. And poptart you will get.

Grrrrr. How I long for the days when pope and I were mortal enemies!

Hey! Is this thread about me or Dwayner?

OK If you dont get a guide here is what I recomend. Go tot he top. The routes up there dry off much more quickly than the lower routes. Next follow trails towards the west and north and start workign your way down. Its a bit more of a traverse than I expect everytime. At one point you kinda scramble down a short section (very easy) and at the bottom of the scramble there is a short wall look for two bolts. From here head down and south. You will soon be at the bottom of the Powerline Wall. I think Smoots Guide will get you there. If there was a longer period of good weahter behind us I' d say go to the Orange wall but I am sure those routes will be seepy. HAve fun the place can be gorgeous!

Ok Put a collection up so that Pope and I can go off to the Met. (or other establishment) and we'll enjoy a tastey meal and a good bottle of wine.

I am me! Now that Pope and I are buds maybe we should team up and take someone climbing. ALright step up and make your bid a day of climbing with Peter and the Pope! Pope - What do you think is a good cause. And if you say crowbar I'll kill you.

Here is a copy of my PM: Actually I hate it but I truly believe you have been a negative element on this site over the past year and half. I believe that your aims could be achieved via different tactics and that you choose your tactics for short term entertainment value not as a means to expeditiously reach your goals. BTW I never did read your earlier PM's but in a the thread "Fragile Poster" didn't say you asked me not to send you PM's? BTW Way Pope does "I" mean all of your identities? [ 04-19-2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Pope – You scoundrel you have mixed posts and selectively edited my comments! Pope Quote: “quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. PP And this is not taking credit for the suggestion about the validity of TR ascents?” Here is the first Peter quote without strategic edits:”Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal” Quote from Peter’s second response to this thread: “I am not taking credit for saying the validity of TR or contacting a retro bolter. What I suggested was that I outlined a series of steps for dealing with errant bolters that did not needlessly antagonize and ridicule others in a counter productive manner. “ Quote from Pope [here Pope is quoting me]“Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.” [Now Pope is speaking]“Underlying this is the assumption that a “poorly” bolted route is one with too few bolts. Assuming this is true, your quote implies that such a route then will be enjoyed by a more exclusive group, that a more diverse group will somehow be unable to enjoy it. Therein lies your call for equal access. I apologize for putting you through these mental gymnastics. I assumed YOU wouldn’t be reading late at night.” Full quote from Peter: “Rap placement or on lead placement it makes no difference. There is simply nothing edifying inherent in a particular style of climbing. The result that should be evaluated is not the subjective experience of the FA party but rather the physical nature of the route. For example, Is it over/under protected? Are the bolts placed in the best positions? Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.” Pope note this line in the above quote “Is it over/under protected?”Now think of the Condorphamine Route. Longtime CC.com’s will remember how this route was ridiculed because TOO MANY bolts were placed. Some have suggested that you could have one at your feet, one at your waist, while your were clipping the third. I haven’t climbed the route but if true I would say hey too many bolts! Another example: once I climbed a route where the leader placed bolts off hooks on lead unfortunately due to that fact, everyone of the bolts was in a terrible clipping position. Simply put there was and is no implication as you suggest. Pope quote:”It was very juvenile of me to respond to this. I apologize for boasting. I think this must be the third time a sport boy like P.P. has come out with this “pope can’t climb hard” line of crapIt was very juvenile of me to respond to this. I apologize for boasting. I think this must be the third time a sport boy like P.P. has come out with this “pope can’t climb hard” line of crap. Peter, this isn’t your original and clever line either, I’m afraid.” Actually as I said earlier I knew exactly what your response would be since you have given it many times so I am afraid it wasn’t a “pope can’t climb hard” line of crap.” Simply pulling your chain. Pope Quote: He might have even noticed when you called me a hypocrite for denouncing the DDD retrobolting while promising not to chop it since those guys are my buddies. I don’t think that I said hypocrite although it was so long ago and I might have been typing fast. If I did it was in error I would have chosen another word. I can think of several. Pope Quote: “Why do you keep trying to get into my pants?” Now why on earth do you always turn things into something sexual? Regards, PP

Peter Puget, you're coming from such a foreign paradigm, I can't relate at all. But thanks for the definition of edify. And to think that I had equated "enlighten" with "To instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge." I think I'll have to get another edition of Webster's dictionary because the one I got has "edify" and "enlighten" as synonyms. Main Entry: syn·o·nym javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?synony01.wav=synonym')javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?synony01.wav=synonym') Pronunciation: 'si-n&-"nim Function: noun Etymology: Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synOnymon, from neuter of synOnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name -- more at NAME Date: 15th century 1 : one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses Clearly considering two synonyms as always interchangeable is wrong. But in any event I wasn’t disputing your use of enlighten. What I do dispute is that there is something enlightening inherent in climbing. While you may feel you have had enlightening experiences while climbing, it is simply your experience. Hopefully you have a great time climbing but your experience is yours alone. Others may climb the same route and experience nothing even close to enlightenment.

Pope: Pope Quote:”The validity of a top-rope is hardly an original idea of yours or mine, although if you're short on original thoughts, you're welcome to take credit. Contacting a retro-bolter to establish a dialogue? Oddly enough, I attempted to do this within one week of my first anti-bolt post. I'm pretty sure this happened before you "published" your brilliant ideas one year ago.” I am not taking credit for saying the validity of TR or contacting a retro bolter. What I suggested was that I outlined a series of steps for dealing with errant bolters that did not needlessly antagonize and ridicule others in a counter productive manner. Now you have agreed with my suggestions: [insert quote] “restoration should be performed without making a spectacle.” I advocated that long ago. Sadly I see your ranting continues, thus adding a significant element of “spectacle” to the affair. While you now give it lip service your vanity keeps you spewing. For example, long ago in the DDD debacle you contacted the villain then when he proceeded to ignore your wishes you brought the matter up publicly and created a situation where you encouraged others to chop the bolts. I agreed then and still believe that they should have been removed. I thought that the insults related to it and your chicken shit manner of slamming your friend while keeping his name secret and of getting others to do the dirty work were/are spectacularly inflammatory. I suggested that someone just remove the bolts with little fan fair. Certainly that would have given a message to the bolters and not subjected everyone (including those already antagonistic towards climbing) to a public shit fest. A simple post simply stating the removal and reasoning would have been preferred over the spew. More examples of spectacle making are available by simply searching on your ID#. Pope Quote;”Christ, this was not going to be another thread in which I argued about bolting, access, etc. Just a question or two, Mr. P.P. Firstly, how can you hope to extend equal access to all climbers? Doesn't climbing limit access to some groups by its very nature? What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"? Also, how does putting bolts into an established TR make it more accessible to anybody? Finally, where do aesthetics fit into your equation?” Peter Quote: “The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.” After reading your comments regarding equal access I first thought “what the hell did I write.” Upon reviewing my post I can see that you have simply created something out of thin air. Clearly I never suggested equal access. So I will only suggest that you must have been very tired when you wrote your comments regarding equal access. My guess is that over the last year I have removed more “offensive” bolts than you, Ray, Will or even Mitch. I choose to do so in a discrete manner. Your response as quoted above is simply sophomoric chatter. Pope Quote “One more thing: where do you get your information about Pope's hardest sport lead? My hardest clip-up was said to be 5.12b/c, this being accomplished without aid or falls on my first attempt. I haven't attempted anything harder, although I "flashed" 5.12d (Equinox, Joshua Tree) on TR (felt about as scary as sport climbing).” Actually as far as the rating I was poking fun at you as several times you have mentioned your hardest sport lead and the last time (actually the time before this last time!) claimed it was the first and last time you would do so. I thought you must be seeking some acknowledgement. By the way my ascent was a real no hang, place your pro, first time kinda thing. By the way congrats on Equinox you must have lady fingers. Cheers, PP

Def: (Websters) Edify: To instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge. Quote:”Whoa. So, in your mind, a rap-bolted ascent is no more noteworthy than a ground-up ascent?” Answer: It all depends. The vast majority of FA regardless of style are simple unremarkable. But you conclusion does not follow what I said. Quote:”Do you extend this to a free ascent being no more noteworthy than an aid ascent of the same climb?” Depends. For example someone aiding via hooks up Bloodlust at Squamish would be more noteworthy than a free ascent. In general most ascents are simply not noteworthy. Quote:”Have you actually been on the sharp-end on a ground-up ascent? You might find it VERY enlightening (i.e. edifying). I think that there absolutely is a difference between ascent styles --inherently. Our sport glorifies style, and many pursue a (subjectively) pure one when they climb.” I never said there were not differences. And yes I have I have actually placed bolts on lead. Once so far out from the prior one that I was too scared to climb it again when I went back to add a new pitch! The nature of the climbing was not sufficient to “ instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge.” People are free to pursue any style they wish. The fact that they choose one goal does not diminish mine or someone else’s if we have chosen another. It is impossible for me to evaluate the quality of your experience. I am completely able to think that a trembling 5.6 leader on a well protected traditional or even sport climb is more “out there” than me when I lead that pitch I described earlier (the one that I chickened out on later) In otherwords (yours if I understand you correctly)his/her experience is far more noteworthy than mine. [ 04-18-2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal. I even noted that I had recently removed some myself. After a year it is nice to see you come around and jump on the wagon. Too bad we all had to suffer through a year of public invective and your disingenuous claims that you are not trying to incite controversy. Even the effortlessly cool Mattp had to rebuke you. You can work yourself to redemption now as long as you don’t get out of control or start your old habits again. As others have noted this is really a tempest in a teapot. The number of routes is really quite small and the impact not as great as is suggested by the volume of the argument. Think about it, these new bolts are just now getting noticed? Here are just a few more comments Pope will be agreeing with sometime next year: Rap placement or on lead placement it makes no difference. There is simply nothing edifying inherent in a particular style of climbing. The result that should be evaluated is not the subjective experience of the FA party but rather the physical nature of the route. For example, Is it over/under protected? Are the bolts placed in the best positions? Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another. I have climbed both trad and sport my hardest traditional lead was in fact harder than Pope’s hardest sport lead. I have climbed risky routes and super safe routes. What routes stick in my ? Oddly neither the risky nor the hard ones. I seem to remember the fun ones. Fun isn’t define by a number or a grade or a style it just is. All this stupid fighting and insults over the past year have done nothing but suck the fun out of climbing. Rather than sling unfair insults why not just start out and assume that even the guy doing something you hate is acting with the best of intentions. PP

Maybe I'll show up, if you can send the short bus and the men in white suits. and Fred promises to grope me, and grab my ass!!!

or hold them down and pee on them.

Yeah!! Girl Power!!!