Stefan

quote: Originally posted by DavidW: as I've mentioned before I had a rappel sling failure put me in the hospital for several months....... still i've been trying to understand what happened here...... Stefan in your opening post you stated: " I set up another rappel around a previous anchor sling at the subsidiary station." Does that mean mean that there was one more sling in the anchor photographed and that that sling is now missing? And you didnt add any slings? You merely selected the best from the group and used it? you didnt add one and tie your own knot or anything? For what its worth my accident happened in 1973..... I've been climbing ever since but still get some twinges of fear at less than optimal stations..... its manageable and will lessen with time. Best wishes for a speedy recovery however and thanks for your patience with this thread! The answer is "YES" to all your questions. I didn't trust any of the slings in that group photographed becuase of their wearing. They didn't look reliable. The sling I used was not in that group--it was away from that group of slings.

quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: quote:Originally posted by Smoker: So what have we learned? Back up our rap anchors and Dont use your climbing rope for a hand line. Except, from the description given by the victim, he might very well have impacted on his back rather than landing on his feet. If I was using the rope as a traditional rappel, I would have fell on my back and been paralyzed, or dead. I am thankful I was using the rappel as a handline from the way I fell...... Yes, I guess I should have backed up the rappel anchor. Hindsight is always 20/20. However, it is not always feasible to back up every rappel when you are in the alpine setting. It is ideal, but not always done.....

quote: Originally posted by SEF: Stefan, I commend you for returning again to clarify. The result is a clearer, if still incomplete understanding. I fully understand that you will find revisiting the subject sensitive, but assure you that clarity, not criticism, is my goal. You have some rather daunting injuries, not all of which are physical. I hope you find some comfort that your efforts in posting here will help others. I know I will certainly think of you when I inspect my next rap anchor. Still unanswered is the question of whether the sling that failed is missing. If, as you seem to suggest, its original location was outside the frame in the posted picture, then we cannot know from that. Obviously, finding that sling would be key to determining the failure mechanism. Your description of the sling inspection that you made before the downclimb omits any mention of the knot that was used or the length of its tails, which rather stands out to me. I do know that the water knot is prone to creep, especially over repeated weight and un-weight cycles, especially in very supple tubular webbing. Once the tail enters the knot itself, the knot can suddenly fail without warning when weighted. Other rappelling accidents have resulted from such failure. I can't say that is what occured here, but it is a strong possiblity. The sling had the traditional waterknot on it from what I remember, with about 1" tails. Did I touch the waterknot to see its tightness/looseness? No. I just saw the waterknot and it appeared right to me. In my opinion, the sling broke somehow. Why didn't the people see the sling when they went back? Vegetablebelay has a good answer. The helicopter created A LOT of downdraft and there was little scree bits flying around a lot--I really mean A LOT. The helicopter came and went over the location 4 times. 1)to drop the paramedic 2)to drop the litter 3)to pick me up in the litter 4) to pick the paramedic up. Right now I am not in the frame of mind to ever rappel again.

quote: Originally posted by TimL: Unfortunately bad things happen in this sport to many good people. Sometimes we are able to figure out the cause, others the best we can do is speculate on possible scenarios of what went wrong. After speculating so much, it seems like the discussion reaches the same results as a cat chasing its own tail. I think we should be thankful that Stefan is recovering and not dead, and that he has decided to share his story in a public forum, something I would not do if it were me. Hopefully Stefan will be able to recover fully and enjoy the beauty and freedom that climbing offers all of us. Thanks Tim. Nicely said. I suck at writing good words. Right now I have casts on both legs. My right leg which took most of the fall and was operated on. I have a 1/4 inch plate by 6 inches on my tibia(is this the small bone?) on the outside with 8 screws. On the lower section of my fibia on the instep (I think the big bone) I have an angular screw (1 inch) and a pin (1 inch) with a wire attached to it for holding it in place. Due to the tightness of the cast I can feel the plate on my outside leg. My left leg has a fracture on the neck of the talis bone(sp?). No surgery required, but I will probably get a second opinion. Both casts come off in 4 weeks. Then therapy starts on the right leg for mobility. I will wait on the left leg for another 4 weeks for any therapy as the doctor strictly enforces NO WEIGHT bearing on that bone!

quote: Originally posted by SEF: I’ve been quietly following this thread, and remain disturbed. The lack of a clear explanation makes it harder to “move on.” We all want to avoid this ourselves, but what exactly is there to avoid? We seek to know what failed here so we can be more vigilant about checking for that possibility before committing to future anchors. Anchors simply do not fail and then appear just fine on inspection afterward. The picture does not show what failed. It shows several slings, with knots that appear to still be in place, but the sling actually used for the rap rope is not identified. Was it missing? Clearly something failed, yet those who inspected evidence remaining on the scene are saying nothing there appears to have failed. That contradiction remains bothersome. At this point, I do take from this the lesson that using more than one sling to anchor a rappel is prudent. Where a bunch of slings are available, I’ll use as many as possible, inspect closely, and perhaps even fortify them with a new one of my own. I add my best wishes to Stefan for a speedy and full recovery. All I know is that the one sling I used, failed. Two slings in the future every time I do a rappel? Maybe. Depends on the situation and how many slings I have left in my arsenal. I have used one sling around bomber trees to rap off of and I would probably continue with that practice if I decide to do any more rappeling again. I believe many of you out there will too. But just to say you will ALWAYS use at least two slings is ridiculous. At least 2 slings at every rappel would be ideal--sometimes idealism runs into reality when you are out there. What about that time when you have to leave a piece of pro behind? Will you leave two pieces of pro behind to back up your anchor? Some will. Some won't. Everyone makes their own decisions when the time comes. Nobody wants to die or get hurt. Why didn't I bother to back up my sling with those that show up in the picture? I chose not to use those slings because they were tattered and worn. My sling was near but not in that bunch of slings. I believed those slings shown were unsafe when I was there. I chose the sling I used becuase of its relative newness, the way it was rapped around a rock, no sign of wearing, and was bomber when I pulled on it before my partner went down first. I decided to not back it up with the worn slings becuase the angle with the sling I was using was not conducive to the angle of the rappel--it meant the angle of the rope would be somewhat "triangular" and if the worn slings broke, then I could forsee an angular fall.

quote: Originally posted by leejams: Just another thought, perhaps it wasn't the anchor at all. If he was downclimbing and just using the rope as balance and somehow grabbed only one rope instead of both he could have lost his balance and slipped off? Hope you have a speedy recovery stefan. Good question. But, sorry, nope. My partner would have to pull the rope down as it was only about 30 feet in length to the sling from the bottom. My partner did not have to pull the rope down.

quote: Originally posted by Bug: Stefan. You said it was a fluke. I respectfully disagree. You made a mistake my friend. Don't do it the same way ever again. I have done the same. I continue to climb with that knowledge burning into the back of my head. I never take anything for granted. No found sling is safe without a thorough inspection. No found achor, etc... You and I were lucky and survived. I am sorry you have such a bad injury. Not all my friends have survived this sport. I hope your injuries heal quickly and your pride can handle the truth. You have to change something. Interesting. I remember a report of a woman who died on a sport climb. She was climbing on a rope that had been toproped. She took a leader fall and fell to her death. The reason was the rope had a defect. Manufacturer problem I believe--something about where two ropes were joined. No climber could have found that problem. A good man died recently at the coulee. I haven't followed the thread exactly, but as I recall it may be a biner failure. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) Second man goes down on a sling and for some reason the sling disengages on the second man. I didn't just rap on any sling. Yes, I did inspect the sling (that's an obvious thing everyone should do). Yes I even pulled on the rope (twice) before my partner went down first to make sure the sling could hold. I will continue with the same practice. Someday a harness will break.....what then? someday a rappel ring will break....what then? someday a rappel device will break...what then? Not every piece of equipment is reliable 100% all the time even though you have to put all your trust in it. If I climb Liberty Bell again, I will rap off those anchors that are set up--and yes I will inspect them before I use them....but if they fail....I guess that would be my fault....

Like I said before in my original email, the sling will remain a mystery. Something happened, and I don't know what, not even the people who went back could figure it out. That's life. That's how it's going to be. Just be safe out there and remember that nothing is full proof 100%.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: Did you step down suddenly or make any other 'bouncy' type movement just before you fell? Also, when you say you were handlining down, was the rope through a rap device, or not? Hand line to me sounds like the rope wasnt through your rap device, more like you were just holding it in both hands for balance. I just downclimbed and did not make any bouncy movements, nor did I step down suddenly. I was handlining down and not using a rap device. Before my partner went down on the rap sling I have two hard pulls in the direction of the rappel to make sure the rope was secure. The sling was around a very large rock that was acting like a chockstone.

My partner went down first and I watched the rappel anchor--it never moved. Since I saw that the rappel anchor never moved, I was confident nothing would happen. I did not have full body weight on the rappel anchor when I was going down becuase I was using it as a handline like my partner, but I was still using a significant amount of weight on the rope. I understand what everybody says about backing up the rappel anchor and sending the heavier person down first. However, this was just a fluke thing that happened, and I don't think that would have worked in this instance.

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Chips: quote:Originally posted by Mr. Chips: Upon returning to the site, did your partner locate and keep the sling used for the rappel? If so, was it still tied? was it broken? were there signs of abrasion? was a rappel ring used? Were there possibilites to connect your rap station to another older station, I realize proxitmity and angles play a large part here. Any response to this Stefan? Sorry, haven't been back to the site for a little while. As I/or partner cannot remember which sling we used, he was unable to locate the sling or decide which sling was used that was there. No rappel ring was used. We did not back up the sling with another sling..... This incident will always remain a mystery, but it will enhance my fear of rappelling.

On October 12th I had a rappelling accident off of Mount Temple in the Enchantments. Here are some of the details. I will not include approach or climbing details to keep this brief. I have not wanted to write about this before, but here it goes. My friend, Mike T., and I had just summitted Mount Temple and we had a 50 meter rope. We completed the first rappel off of the summit to a subsidiary station about 25-30 feet above the col; however a 60 meter rope would reach the col from the summit rappel. Since our rope did not reach the col, I set up another rappel around a previous anchor sling at the subsidiary station. I threaded the rope through the sling and gave two strong pulls on the anchor to make sure it was secure. The rope was threaded through only one sling and the sling appeared fairly new. There were several other slings nearby but they were well worn and I avoided them. My partner went down on the rope, using the rope as a handline while downclimbing low fifth class 5 slab/crack section and not putting full force on the rope to the col. I thought my partner’s idea was a good idea and proceeded to copy. I had my left hand in the crack and my left foot near the crack. I had my right hand on the rope. I did not have all the pressure on the rope, but I still had a fair amount of pressure. All of a sudden the rope came loose. I fell. I slid down the 5th class slab sliding face toward the rock and feet down. My partner thinks I fell 10 feet while I think I fell 20 feet. I landed and broke my talis bone on my left foot and had multiple breaks in my right foot. I was in a lot of pain. Due to the time (3:30), I knew my partner had to get out for a helicopter for me. He left me all his extra clothes and food. He took off in an incredible speed and got out to the Snow Creek trailhead in about 3 hours. I had a helicopter rescue come out of the Yakima Training Center and pick me up at 10:30pm with night vision goggles. It was cool and scary the whole time being rescued. I am not able to walk for 3 months due to my injuries. My partner has since been back to investigate the rappel anchor but could not determine what has happened. So what happened? There are four possibilities and we will never know the true answer: 1) The rappel anchor broke 2) The rappel anchor came untied 3) The rappel anchor slipped off of the rock 4) The rock moved causing the rappel anchor to slip off Did I do anything wrong? I look back on the incident and I cannot come up with a single answer where I went wrong. I have always hated rappels due to the lack of control I have and I will continue to hate rappels. I have placed my own rappel anchors, and I have come off of others rappel anchors before. If I continue to climb, I will continue with the same practice. I would like to thank Chelan County Rescue and the Yakima Training Center crew that picked me up in the middle of the night--everyone did such an awesome job. But most of all I really want to thank my partner for the efforts he put forth in my rescue—it is greatly appreciated and will never be forgotten. Thank you. Stefan Feller I have included some photographs from that fateful day. When you open the web page select “Cancel” when the window asks “Please enter your authentication information” http://www.mtnmike.com/TT/stefan.htm

Second mid rappel anchor off of the Temple. Looked pretty bomber to me. My partner went down using the rope as a handline first. I went next.... About a 1/3 of the way down the sling broke... And I broke bones in both feet....helicoptered off....now recovering.....

I have surgery tomorrow. I will give a full detailed description of the trip report probably by this weekend with some pictures my partner took that day As far as I know, my rope is still up there as well as a climbing axe and climbing boots. They are there for the taking....

I am okay. I don't know exactly went wrong with the rappel sling I was coming off of Mount Temple. I don't know if it broke, if it untied, if it slipped from the rock....all I know is the rappel sling failed. I have a broken ankle on the right and a talus bone fracture on the left. I have surgery next Wednesday. Later, I will try to give a detailed description of what happened if anybody is interested. But today I am online for a short period. I am at home now watching Oprah and Jerry Springer. That Jerry Springer show is crazy! Where the hell do they get these people to come on tv?! Later dudes. By the way, there is a 50meter 10mm rope up there at a short class 4 section below the col on the north side, a lightweight ice axe, and a pair of boots. All for the taking! I will be online maybe this weekend....I feel very fortunate for what could have happened.

I will be up climbing Mount Temple and the Mole. Let me know if you will be in that area so I can take your stuff.

dudes, this is awesome! I can see Dwayner using several of these great photo ops. http://www.8ung.at/bandfotogalerie/bandfoto1.html

Can I whine?

quote: Originally posted by chucK: Stefan, Check this out abridged beta from CC.com . A while back I took some threads that had beta for various things I wanted to try. I saved the source code and edited out all the crap. That left me with peeeyure beta. Later I put 'em on my webpage. I hope noone minds (Jon, Tim), I tried to attribute everything, except maybe in one link (the Backbone Ridge one) where I made this little file way before I ever had any thoughts of sharing it with the world. Anyway, Stefan, if you want a pure beta repository, go ahead and make a couple pages like these and send 'em to me. I'll put them on this page. Or post 'em on your own if you got one. Unfortunately, I haven't kept any of my trip reports. I know I should to look at them.....

quote: Originally posted by jon: Hey I got a question for you guys and gals which I don't think we have ever talked about before.... Should we add more forums and/or change the organization for some of them? Is the Route Reporting Category broken up into enough forum or should we break it up more? Thanks for the feedback!!!! Hello????? Jon???? You asked this question. Guess what? I replied. Just becuase I ask, doesn't mean you have to do. Remember, you asked.

Lambone: The current sections would be as is. People would ask questions for beta. There would be spray. I am asking for a new place for ONLY trip reports without the potential for any responses. Dru: What I would like to see is a guidebook online. The guidebook would be constantly updated by its users--not updated whenever the author wanted it to be updated. Dru as you know, access to the base of peaks changes with the logging companies if they decide to put up a gate/improve a road/abandon a road. Also the guidebook online would have MORE INFORMATION than what the editors would allow in the books. Hell, look at bivouac.com it is growing by its users and information--and it is updated. There is nothing like bivouac.com on this website--or for the Cascades on any site I have seen. Jon: See above for the idea about guidebook online. I don't have the time, and probably most of your users who have logged on don't have the time either. You are probably online so much, you just assume everybody else has the time. Truth is-we don't all have T1's or DSL's.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: Stefan - How many of your trip reports have been deleted Personally I totally disagree. If you want no-reply TRs then post on summitpose or nwta. If there wrre no replies to TRs there wouldnt have been Muir on Saturday or the current West Ridge of Prussik thread and Scot'teryx would never know he was gaining acceptance as he learns to climb more and chestbeat less. I know I said deleted. I guess I meant "lost" in the array of spray. If you want beta on some peak you have dig through all the spray and odd posts that pop it. Who has time for that? Well, maybe you Dru. Not me. I need something fast. Efficient. Without spray. That's what a lot of people want from the web.

Jon You want something to improve this site? How about a trip reports place where people can post their trip reports by giving beta, BUT no one can respond to the post—thereby eliminating the spray. The other thing that would make it a quality addition, is that you would not delete the information. I find it frustrating to post information and beta, only to have it deleted. If people wanted more questions from the trip report then they would PM the writer. This “posting” place would be similar to Summitpost.com or WTA.org which has about 9000 trip reports on trails.

I saw there is a thread on this topic but it died. Seriously, has anyone out there climbed Mt. Temple and can give me beta so I don't miss the correct peak?

thanks tread tramp and everybody else. Did anybody else witness any other type of snow conditions up there this weekend?