Lambone

quote: Originally posted by allison: Lambone, I'm curious about this sheath failure thing. It's my understanding that the sheath is a protective covering over the nylon strands on the inside. In the gym the ony thing that the bare strands would rub against is the aluminum of the 'draws, and it seems to me that even with the sharp angle to the first draw, and given that there's no load 'till you fall, on lead, that the rope would hold up at least for a little while before failing. Aluminum is soft! Surely the kernmantle sheath is better on the force of abrasion than the nylong strands, but are they totally useless without the sheath? Did you see the rope? I am just curious because I am a lemming. No that’s a really good question (although a bit confusing), and I'll get into it a bit more... The rope may have been damaged before the two started climbing and the leader fell on it. However, there are two important words that you mentioned which might have caused the failure of the sheath: 1. "the sharp angle of the rope to the first draw"2. "Aluminum is soft!" These two issues are interrelated, let me try and explain the problem. Many people who lead in the gym, outside or otherwise, have this strange notion that the proper place to stand while belaying is out away from the wall. This distance from the wall creates a "sharp angle of the rope" that you mentioned. This technique creates several problems, the first being that it reduces the ability of the belayer to absorb the fall dynamically, second it creates a situation where a belayer that is jerked from a fall could fall lose control of the rope, and or get injured themselves (the solution to this is to anchor the belayer to the ground which creates an even more static fall). Third, and particularly important in the gym where climbers are getting lowered off routes all day long, everyday...this "sharp angle" puts a lot of pressure on the first carabineer on the bottom clip. This causes the "soft aluminum" to wear out quickly...the ropes after repeated use actually burn through the metal! Ever wonder why your gym rope turns your hands black? That is aluminum oxide from the carabineers! This wear decreases the radius of the biner, significantly weakening it, and creates a sharp edge that can possibly cut a rope. Now here is the simple equation: Sharp biner + Old Rope with worn out sheath = Failed sheath! This is an endless problem in the gym that we address daily, yet some folks just don't want to hear it. I'm not sure why people insist on standing out from the wall, some say it's because it allows them to see the climber better and causes less neck strain, and others say that they don't want the climber to land on their head. Both of these are common misconceptions, just like that good old misconception about clipping your belay biner through the two tie-in points instead of the belay loop. I did see this event happen (again, no one was hurt), and I did see the rope afterward. It was an old rope, the sheath was cut all the way around and pulled apart completely, exposing the entire core. The core of the rope looked undamaged. We replaced the biner immediately. Incidentally we spend a lot of money on carabineers because some people insist on standing away from the wall instead of close to it. I'm sure this is a common problem in gyms across the country. We could put steel biners on the first clips, but people will inevitably complain about that because they don't clip as well. The moral of this long-winded story: Stand close to the wall when you belay, and don't use old ropes, ever. I saw a guy belaying an ice climber at ICY BC a while ago, who was standing at least thirty feet away from the bottom of the route...sitting down none-the-less! His partner was running it out and looked fairly gripped. I bit my lip, but thought to myself; if that guy falls he gunna deck for sure. The funny thing is, the leader was a guide and the belayer was his client acting under his instruction. I kept my mouth shut reluctantly, and got the hell out of there. Hope that answers your question.

That totaly kicks ass! What a trooper Keep on keepin on Jim!

Cool thanks guys, I've had 9 responses in 2 hours, that's awsome! Don't forget that you can also e-mail me or send a PM if you don't want everyone to see your answers. You may run into trouble if you try to paste the survey into Word, because of formating issues. A quick and dirty list of a,b,c,d,etc. answers is fine. Hopefully some kids, ladies, and old-schoolers will participate as well! I'll compile the data obtained from this web site seperately so that we can check out what the overall numbers look like for CC.comers. Might make for some good spray [ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Lambone ]

Howdy folks, I'm working on a research project for a geographic research methods class. The project involves gathering data from a sample population and manipulating it through statistical methods in order to determine if a relationship can be drawn. The project is intended to be fun; therefore for obvious reasons I have chosen to survey climbers! This voluntary survey will be used to evaluate the relationship between a climber’s profile and the climbing area they use most often. I am using this web site as an attempt to diversify my sample of the climbing community, so your cooperation in this survey is greatly appreciated! It will take about 2 minutes to complete. If you choose to complete the survey, you can either return your answers as a PM, or send them directly to my hotmail account. Respond any way that you like (i.e. copy and paste, highlight the answers, etc.), whatever is quick and easy for you. The survey is meant to be anonymous, but if you e-mail me the answers I will know who you are. I cannot think of an easy way to avoid this. The subject material isn't exactly controversial so I hope that this will not prevent you from participating. You have my word that your response is strictly confidential. Thank you! 1. What type of outdoor climbing do you participate in most often?(Check one box) a. Lead climbing- traditional (natural gear) b. Lead climbing- sport (bolted)c. Top Roping d. Bouldering e. Aid Climbing Other_______ 2. How many years have you been rock climbing? (Circle One) a.Less than 4 b.4-6 c.7-9 d.10-12 e.13-15 f.15 or More 3. Which local outdoor rock climbing area do you visit most often? (Circle One) a.Index b.Little Si c.Leavenworth d.Vantage e.Exit 38 Other________ 4. How many people do you usually climb with? (Circle one) a.Solo b.1 c.2 d.3 e.4 f.Larger Groups 5. What is most important to you when choosing the climbing area you selected in question #3? (Check one box) a. Type of rock/climbing b. Number of climbers at area (i.e. crowds)c. Aesthetic quality of area (i.e. scenery) d. Length of drive to areae. Weather at area Other________ 6. Are you a member of the Access Fund? a.Yes b.No 7. Please answer the following questions about yourself that will allow me to compare your answers with other climbers. Are you? a.Male b.Female Which age group are you in? (Check one box) a. under 10 b. 10 to 20 c. 21 to 30 d. 31 to 40 e. 41 to 50 Other and proud of it!________ Thank you very much for your time! Have fun and be safe! [ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Lambone ]

quote: Originally posted by Biff: I love my fiance. Really, I do. But her belaying skills are not inspiring confidence. Frankly, I can trust her to belay me on topropes, and even then, when she lowers me, it's drop, stop, drop, stop-and that's with a Gri-Gri. We're headed to Fresno, CA for a week-and I have to climb. Any moderate (5.6-5.9) sport climbs in the area? Any toperopes that might work for a 60m rope? Anything in Yosemite, Pinnacles that might meet these needs? I find it harder to lower at a consistant rate with a gri-gri. it's just to hard to control the speed of the descent with the lever, it's too touchy, there is such a fine line betwwen locked and all the way open. Try an ATC instead, show her how to use it and explain the friction concept carefully. Don't just show her how it works, explain why it works. It's important for belayers to understand why they are doing what they are doing when they belay. Never over-estimate what someone knows when they are just learning. Start from scratch and go over everything slowly. It will save you alot of pain and misery in the long run. With the gri-gri, try this: Tell her not to try and control how fast you come down with the lever. Instead have her hold the lever all the way down and control the speed of descent with the brake hand. That will make it smoother. Climbing will be less stressfull for you both when you both fully understand the systems involved. Never count on a gri-gri to keep you safe. I speak from exprience, the only time I've been injured climbing was when a friend dropped me with a gri-gri. It was 100% my fault because I didn't take the time to fully explain what was involved, it was a beginner. My fiance and I have taken a self rescue course together, and it was the single best investment weve ever made, she is way more confident with systems now, and she finds climbing much more enjoyable cause shes less stressed out. There is a Top Roping guide for Yosemite, you should be able to find it down there. Have fun, good luck!

The several unfortunate accidents that have occurred in the last week have got me thinking lately (which is unusual for me ). I don’t want to try to evaluate what happened and why, or pin blame on anyone’s shoulders. Shit just happens, and I mean no disrespect to the victims or their families, or parties involved. This is merely a reflection, in the hopes of learning something from their misfortune, and turning something awful into something positive. Is there anything to learn about myself from these situations, can it help prepare me for experiences that I fear may one day come my way? I’ve been doing some soul searching in the last few days, trying to vision myself in the place of a first responder in an accident scene. So far (knock on wood) I have been fortunate throughout my climbing experiences, and am thankful to have never run into a serious situation where another climber’s life was in my hands. I have heard dreadful tales of rescue scenarios, and stories of heroes taking full control of the situation by doing what needed to be done with no hesitation. What I ask myself is; if I were in their shoes how would I respond? Would I have what it takes to remain calm and make correct decisions while considering all the possible outcomes of my choices? If faced with the real deal of a self-rescue in a remote area, would I be able to pull it off? When put in the position to undertake actions that could affect my partner’s future, the rest of their life, would I do the right thing? Could I handle that responsibility? No one can answer these questions for me, yet I believe that everyone who assumes these risks must ask himself or herself the same question at one point. I like to think that my answer is yes, but to be completely honest with myself, I don’t think I can or will know until I am faced with that responsibility. This is one of my greatest fears in climbing; it is almost greater than the fear of falling in the victim’s shoes. A person can seek out the training to deal with terrible accidents, and they can learn the technical skills to carry out a rescue to the best of their ability. I have had some training, and always could use more (someday soon I hope to set aside time for that WFR course).But my question is this: How does one prepare the mind for dealing with emergency situations? Is experience the only teacher in this regard? Is the ability to cope an attribute that people either innately posses or not, or can it be developed, and how? You can stage accident scenes, but its not the same, your blood isn’t pulsing through your veins and your heart isn’t in your throat, in a staged scenario your nerves aren’t all going the wrong direction on the one way streets within your mind. How does one prepare mentally for the moment where each second could be the crucial turning point between life and death? This is just some shit I been thinking about in the last few days. Please feel free to add your own thoughts, be it spray that might make us all laugh, or your own personal explorations into this taboo topic.

No, demand that they (OR) repair them...or else tell them you will never support their product again. Be polite about it, but put your foot down, let them know you are unsatisfied with the product. Then again be prepared to pay a small fee for the repair, still should be way less than replacing them.

BD used to make one.

Thats true... Sorry, I should have been more specific. No, no one was hurt due to the sheath completely failing(all the way around), and yes they were still below the bouldering limit. It was really no big deal... I guess I was just trying to make the point that climbing in the gym can be dangerous as well, and equipment can fail anywhere.

quote: Originally posted by chucK: I'm curious about your report of "rope failure". I understand it was not the gym's rope. Did someone snap a rope on a lead fall at VW? If so, any more details? If not, what happened? [ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: chucK ] No rope has snapped, but I have seen sheaths fail. It was at the first clip on a lead route. We try to replace the biners once every few months, but I think it was just an old rope. So many people use their oldest crappiest ropes to climb with in the gym, but the fall forces are just the same inside....

One more thing, As for whether our gym is more dangerous than others, I couldn't say. I've only been to a few gyms in my lifetime, and only worked at one. I'll tell you one thing, our entire staff puts saftey and risk management at the highest priority. We have regular meetings on saftey issues, and have been trained in first aid. The people who climb at VW are most often our friends, and we never want to see anyone get hurt. Plus, of course we don't want to get sued and lose our jobs. Come take our belay test, then go to a different gym and take theirs. Then decide for yourself which gym puts saftey above of making money. Hope that answers your question.

Yes, infact it's posted on a big sign right when you walk in the front door. This sign is a standard CGA "Climbing is Dangerous" warning, and posted in gyms throught the country. Either way you look at it, thirty feet off the ground is the same whether outdoors or indoors. Climbing is inherently dangerous no matter where its done. Our equipment isn't dangerous, accidents occur through user error. As in people involved with accidents don't tie in right, belay properly, or know how to spot correctly. Any other questions on your list?

A freind of mine went bouldering in the icicle this weekend. He said it was patchy snow and the top outs were wet. Said he had chilly fingers, bring some belay mits! I bet the face climbing on southfacing stuff would be dry with all this sun.

Thanks, I was hoping to get someones attention with that. However, I'd argue that climbing in the gym is much less a waste of precious life than sprayin on the computer. And one other thing...I been climbin since I was a freshman in high school, and I've seen more people get hurt in the gym in the last two years than I have seen in all that time. Falling broken holds, bad belayers, poor spotting techniques, rope failure (not the gyms rope), pulled tendons and burnt lips from hot coffee. the only time I've been injured climbing was when I got dropped in the gym. Gym climbing is not much safer than climbing outside. [ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Lambone ]

quote: Originally posted by Dwayner: Originally posted by Lambone: "Whatever tacoma boy..." Is this 'bone-guy going out of his way to find ever more reasons to be unlikeable? Can someone, somewhere, teach this fellow some social skills? - Dwayner, who lives in Tacoma as do many other denizens of this site. No Dwayner, don't take it personally. I just look for any excuse to rag on erik 'cause he's sketchy. And I think there are some genuinly nice folks who work at FF. I don't know anything about Tacoma, other than it's got a big Dome by the highway and it kinda smells funny. I have no opinion on it one way or another. I wanna see the next monster truck rally at the dome! Lemme know when it is ok.

Whatever tacoma boy...not all the folks there are rude, they'd just rather be looking at magazines like all climbers.

true dat...but if I'm buyin a Bibler you'll see me across the street.

But the rambles has such a looooong approach.... Hey Dru, you should get together with Lyle and find a good spot to farm some ice. There has got to be some place that climbers could do it without impacting the drainage too much... Some friends of mine did it in Bozeman (despite resistance) and three Grade 5 pillars now form up every year. They are one of the most popular spots in Hyalite.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: Looks like Swiss Cheese with all those ergonomic foot holes/tool hooks. Yeah, it reminded me of a gym rat jug haul, I felt right at home Pro was crap, but you'd havta try to fall off... Too bad there isn't more TRable ice up there to distribute the masses and guided parties. Poor ICY BC

I'm sure that guy will come home with a big pile-o-shit on his pillow!

100% is good right! Thanks for the update Jim, please let us know when he wakes up. I'm beaming him my get well energy, hope everyone else is too!

quote: Originally posted by MATT B: I seem to have lit some flames. It seems that many of you got the impression that my gear is 10 years old beat to shit and I just want new ones. Not quite true. If it were I would go buy new ones. Yes it is ten year old. It is used but far far from beet to shit. The problem is that the edges of the velcro were not sealed correctly so they are coming unraveled. This started from day one with the gloves. I dont think OR even uses velcro on their overmits any more (wondery why) I should have taken then back at the first sign of a problem but I didn't. Finaly I don't want them replaced, that would be a waste. I just want them fixed. If I take them in and they say no, so be it. Although some make it sound like a capitol offence for trying. As for lifetime of product is it measured in quality and condition or number of years? Any excuse to be a flamer right... OR still uses velcro, but its probably better than the old stuff. Your best bet would be to take them down to the OR shop and demand that they fix them. At the worst they will charge you a small fee, but they shouldn't. Every Brand has a different warranty policy. BD's is only good for one year. TNF (at least when I was there) was good for the owners lifetime, as long as it was the original owner. I saw several well used tents, coats, and sleeping bags, from the 70's come in and TNF fixed them at no charge. BTW- as soon as the production moved overseas our warranty pile went from stuff made in the 70's to stuff made three months ago... Then they tried to make us wear uniforms and listen to musak all day, so I quit. [ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Lambone ]

quote: Originally posted by johnny: Hey TomTom: ever heard of the internet? never looked myself but I would bet money that you could order that Bibler tent from Bibler and leave REI out of the loop, AT retail or a bit under no less From Black Diamond.

quote: Originally posted by Jeff Savoie: Do you kiss your mother with that dirty mouth? As for "poor MATTB" didn't he ask for people's opinion on the subject, and what are you his big brother or something? You started with the trash talkin, I just picked up where you left off. No we ain't brothers, but us Matt's gotta stick together. personaly I could careless about REI and their return policy. Be careful Jeff, once Caveman knows who you are he'll be hunting you down soon enough. Some companies, good ones, claim that their warranty if for the lifetime of the owner, not the product. The North Face used to when I worked for them in the early 90's.

quote: Originally posted by sisu suomi: Give me a fucking break, fix the shit yourself you lazy fucking ass hole. I stopped in at REI in Utah in 96 on a road trip to get a bike rack. I was installing it in their parking lot. While doing so an employee came out to see if I was having any trouble. While there he looked at my Yakama box and told me to take it off and bring it in for a replacement as it was defective. This blew me away because as far as I knew it was OK. I asked him if he was sure. He looked at some production numbers and said, "Yep, take it off and I'll get you a new box." No need to rip off the system when it functions like that. Harsh dude, take it easy there... Yakima most likely did a recall on you box. I'm not sure what it was, but it could have been some kind of public saftey issue. As in they don't want your box to fly off the top of the car, or open up at 70 miles an hour dumping your shit all over the highway. Either way I'm sure the box was sent back to yakima and they most likely reused the materials, it ain't like REI just chucked it in the dumpster. Ever look at the tags on the stuff you buy? Notice the little fine print that says LIFETIME WARRANTY on materials and craftsmanship an so on and so forth...??? Companies do not normally cover normal wear and tear, and REI shouldn't either, but LIFETIME means for the lifetime of the owner, not the lifetime of the product. It shouldn't matter if the product is 10 years old, or forty years old. I think the difference that we are arguing over here is that if you send an old pair of gloves back to the company with blown out stitching, they will most likely repair them for free and send them back and make you pay for shipping, (depending on the warranty departments assesment of the item). REI seems to just give you a new one no questions asked. Since I try not to buy shit there anyway, I don't mind scaming their system, fuck 'em, it ain't like they are going out of buisness any time soon.