mattp

Joffre and Matier are most easily climbed from the col between them (Joffre via the "aussie gully" and Matier via the standard -- NE? -- ridge. Both are short climbs form the col, which is most easily approached via Cerise Creek in something like 4 hrs for a moderately fit climber carrying a day pack. Rex's Piller is maybe a mile away, down the Matier Glacier, and another relatively short and easy climb from there, or a longer but still technically easy climb can be made on the Stonecrop Glacier from the upper Joffre Lake. For the "Enchainment" (there are one or two peaks between Rex's Piller and Matier), you could approach via Joffre Lakes, climb the Stonecrop, drop to Matier Glacier, and head to the col. Then you'd be descending the more popular and easier Cerise Creek approach, with a hut waiting for you an hour down from the col.

As noted already, there are a lot of different viewpoints expressed here. However, whether you believe "I have a good-given right to pass anyone I please" or "it is dangerous to pass people in the middle of a climb" or whatever else, I support those who suggest showing courtesy and respect for your slower brethren. If you do decide to pass them (particularly if they express discomfort with this) you owe it to them to be absolutely as helpful and friendly about it as you can. As Darin noted, it is entirely unreasonable to expect to have a known classic to yourself, particularly on a weekend, and anybody who demands that they have a right to pass or an absolute right not to be passed is probably being just plain rude. Ask them for permission to pass. If you have done this before, and you think you can pass them without completely screwing them up, talk to them about it. If they still say no, most of the time I think you should probably respect that choice because I think those "gumbies" have just as much of a right to be there as you do. I said probably, and there are certainly situations where I might pass them anyway, but you should recognize is that you are basically saying that you think you are more important than they are, or that you have superior rights because you are a better climber, or something like that. Maybe you can pass them, without significantly impeding their progress, and everybody wins. But maybe not. Sure, you want to climb CC, Outer Space or the NE Buttress of Bugaboo Spire. Everybody does, because these routes are touted as being the "routes to do." But in my view, you should climb elsewhere if you aren't willing to share these climbs with the other climbers that you absolutely know will be there -- especially on a weekend.

A specially designed haul bag is nice, because they are usually both waterproof and tough, and they have a straight profile that minimizes hanging up on overhangs or in cracks. But for many climbs, it really doesn't matter what you use for a haul bag. Even on three day climbs, I have used an army duffel bag with haul slings sewn to it, and I have also used a regular pack. Just be prepared for whatever you haul to get trashed.

quote: Originally posted by mikey: i wonder how easy it is to self arrest with just a piece of straight metal in hand The "ski pole arrest" is a standard technique that uses a (usually) straight piece of metal. It is not as effective as arresting with an ice axe, but far better than the "elbow arrest" which works only in soft snow.

Trask - You owe us. You gonna show up at the Lucky 7 Saloon and buy us all a round? - Mattp

You shouldn't have to choose between 5 pound single and 10 pound double. The North Face used to make a five pound double wall tent that was strong in the wind, and very roomy for two. It was the Westwind. I believe it weighed under 6 pounds in the as-sold package with the stakes, and I found it unnecessary to carry stakes because in the mountains I always tied it out to skis, bushes or rocks anyway. It was high enough at the front end to sit up in , but with an overall low profile, it was less susceptible to wind than other N.Face tents -- I once spent a night on Rainier when my Westwind was find, but the dome tents were either imploding or blowing over or both. The problem was, it wasn't "free-standing" so they couldn't sell it when people compared features in a catalog. Chock another one up for mass-market-driven product "development."

Verve - My memory is that there were some "runout slabs" at Bon Echo, but also a lot of blocky corners and overhangs done on edge holds. As the edges all were tilted diagonally, I suppose you may think those were slabby as well, but most of the climbs there were not slabs that I would recognize as such. Anyway, I digress. Mr. Larson - Question about the climber impacts: It seems to me that the impact associated with bolted face climbs on monolithic rock like granite is probably very different from that which would occur on the Escarpment, where cracks and corners and pockets are cleaned for use as holds and for the placement of protection. Have you any comments on, or are you aware of other's comments on the comparitive impact of different styles of climbing on different types of rock?

No cliffs closer than Kentucky? What about Bon Echo -- it can't be more than about three hours from Toronto. I thought that was one of the coolest place in the east. And aren't there lots of cliffs up along the north shore of Lake Superior? Within 7-8 hours, couldn't you drive from Toronto or Kingston to the Adirondaks and maybe even to the Gunks? I grew up in SE Michigan, and that part of the world is indeed short on good crags, but come now--it's not as grim as all that.

Zeno - I would echo the first line of your response to my prior post. You make some good points. It'll be interesting to see what kind of discussion we may be able to have in evaluating the import and implications of a study undertaken in Ontario -- since most of us have never even been to the Escarpment and probably do not intend to go there, perhaps we can have a more reasoned and less reactive discussion than we might if Professor Larson was talking about a rare cliffside environment in one of our local climbing areas. I am aware of one local crag where issues similar to those identified in the Escarpment study exist: Little Si. There are some rare plants growing along the top of the cliff at World Wall I, and the State asked the route deveopers there to refrain from establishing climbs that topped out. Once this request was made, I believe they put up no more lines to the top of the crag. As I indicated above, I was aware that I overstated any argument with you, but I simply wished to make the point that this discussion may be more productive if we do not descend into a sprayfest. Yours had been the most comprehensive and coherent "rebuttal" yet posted on this topic and hence, I found it easier to try to make most of my points in reference to your prior statements. - Matt

I think Fred suggested that the week after next might be a better night for him. Question: If we had it on a wednesday, rather than a tuesday, might we get Lambone to show up?

All winter long, those are probably the two most easily accessible alpine peaks in the North Cascades. The snow park on the south side is not all that far from the Easton Glacier on Mount Baker. For Shuksan, the ski area on the north side is probably less than a mile from the summer trailhead for the Fischer Chimneys, and it IS the trailhead for the White Salmon.

Zenolith: I hope you are wrong. You stated that “I KNOW that if you banned climbing there however, that some of my less reverent bretheren would rap in there at night and carve their initials on those trees.” If some archeological wonder were discovered in North Bend somewhere, wouldn’t climbers respect a closure of the area if the closure was narrowly drawn and clearly intended to preserve that specific site? What if there was a very rare three-toed black-necked pigeon colony found on the cliffs at Fugs Wall in Frenchmen’s Coulee and the State came out and said: OK to climb in other areas, but leave this one alone? Wouldn’t even the most strident combatants over there most likely recognize that they should accept this? Your initial-carving vandal would be nothing more than an idiot and a jerk. In what I have seen in this thread so far, it appears you have little to disagree with about what Professor Larson wrote, yet you seem bent on an argument. For example: quote: “So, what does your study show that is NOT already obvious?” Your last quote from him shows that they identified and cataloged a unique habitat that may not have been previously identified and inventoried. Perhaps also they may be able to formulate some guidelines for actually measuring climber-impact. And the willingness of climbers to accept their results and comply with responsive regulations, as you hinted in your last quote, may be even more significant in affecting how land-managers or others think they may need to restrict or regulate climbers in the future. quote: “Did you consider the impacts to other areas if this area is closed down? Did you think about …” In the initial post it was stated that he recommended banning climbing in certain “protected” areas along the escarpment. I saw nothing recommending closure of popular and already-existing climbing areas, and no indication that even a large portion of the escarpment should be closed. However, the escarpment is a couple hundred miles long and even if most of it were closed, there might still be plenty or room for climbers. quote: “Lastly, acting like you need to wait for us to cool down before you respond and mentioning how "pissed off" some of us are is a juvenile rhetorical tool and I am calling bullshit.” Do you think that someone who has spent twenty years studying ecology wants to get involved in a discussion of whether or not dolphins have it made because they can play and fuck more than humans? Are you sure he would want to debate science with people who are hostile to his ideas before they even know what he really has to say? Might a casual survey of the active topics on the bulletin board this week lead him to think that this thread is likely to see a bunch of spray even if he tries to take the time to post carefully reasoned responses? It is not uncommon for discussions on this board to degenerate into a bunch of irreverence and gratuitous insult? Is it OK with you if someone thinks they might not want to dive into the mud and they tell you this -- in advance? Like your "disagreement" with the Professor, I may here have overstated any disagreement between you and I. And my diatribe is probably not properly directed toward you -- I enjoy cascadeclimbers.com, but there are certain aspects of the culture of this site that I do find disturbing. In this thread,I am simply asking: If Professor Larson is willing to participate in a discussion here, can we discuss and perhaps debate real issues and leave the rhetoric aside? [ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

Meanwhile, anybody been up logging roads in the area lately? I'm guessing the road in there, going up to something like 2,000 feet on a N. facing slope before it crosses the creek below that side of the mountain, will not open early. But that S. slope looks like a pretty damn nice ski run and maybe somebody should go out and check on it so they can offer a report to the club.

I look forward to hearing from Professor Larson.

Looks like Three Fingers.

As indicated in some of the responses here, the results of the McMillan/Larson study are really no surprise. After all, how could it NOT be the case that scrubbing rock surfaces, cleaning cracks, turning over rocks, and slinging bushes will reduce the extent and diversity of bio-matter on a crag (indeed, in the interest of developing a friendly crag-climbing environment we do our best to eliminate that pesky moss, clean the life-giving dirt from the cracks, eradicate any wasps who may have taken up residence, etc.). The idea that it is a tradeoff -- human enjoyment vs. bio-diversity or aesthetic considerations -- is what we should focus on. Looking at climbing in the Cascade region, I would be willing to guess that Dru is correct that the drier cliff-side environment at Skaha does not recover as fast as that in Squamish, but there may be other factors to consider in addition to wetness. Elevation, for example. I bet a cleaned crack or stomped ledge on Prussik Peak will take longer to recover than one in the Icicle. And uniqueness. My guess is that there is more likely to be something unique growing on Mt. Eerie than there is on a cliff in Darrington or Index, because there is a lot of exposed granite along the west slope of the Cascades, but relatively little of that Mt. Eerie rock growing next to the salt water in Puget Sound. In this vein, I sometimes wonder what the issues are when people worry about "environmental" impact at Frenchmen's Coulee. Sure, the trash and the trails are an eyesore, the turds are disgusting, and wall-to-wall bolts are ugly, but I don't think the basalt rim environment at Vantage is unique when compared to literally hundreds of miles of similar terrain in the immediate vicinity. It does not make the issues related to climber impact any less vital to suggest that the issues at Vantage may be more rooted in aesthetic and egocentric concerns than in some kind of greater or more objective "ecological" concern, but I believe that a recognition of this fact might shed some light on the issues there. We are not just talking about respect for nature, but respect for other people as well. When considering the results of a study like McMillan/Larson, one issue we should be discussing is what this means to us, as climbers, and whether we might be willing to sacrifice our own immediate climbing goals when faced with environmental issues, whether they be related to science or aesthetics.

The best time to climb the North Ridge of Mount Baker is the time that you are interested in doing the climb. No kidding. I have friends who had a great time on the route in April, and I've done it in July and in October (I've also done the Coleman Headwall in January, so that about covers the four seasons). The North Ridge is a scenic climb at any time of the year and, although Dru noted that it is a long way to go if you are looking forward only to the ice pitches, I would say it is a short trip for a climb that feels almost like a genuine big-mountain-big-glacier-ice-climbing kind of thing. Maybe some would question the "bigness" of the route, but I think that Mount Baker has a favorable alpine-to-effort ratio, and the North Ridge in particular does not demand a big effort but allows you to travel in terrain that is usually only found on bigger mountains. Early season, the crevasse crossings will be easy to non-existent. Late season, you will have to wander around a bit and you might even have to climb down into and back out of something so some people will tell you that the Coleman is "impassible" after, say, August. After an early season blizzard in October or November, the Coleman Glacier might be very treacherous. [ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

I climbed on the Niagra Escarpment back in the '70's, and at that time there were at least three separate very popular areas, all within about 25 miles of Toronto, where the routes were developed very close together -- as close as you see on a modern sport crag -- but there were almost no bolts. I just ran a google search and found a description that indicates there has been a lot of bolting since then (big surprise!), but I would guess that the impact might be similar, if not as extensive, if the area saw thirty years of use at the levels it experienced in the 70's -- whether or not bolts were added. It was not uncommon to find parties lined up for climbs every ten feet along the cliff, and they were not shy about removing moss, turning over rocks at the base to make a better belay seat, or slinging nearly dead trees along the cliff edge. There were other areas along the escarpment that were further from Ontario, and these saw much less usage. The Niagra Escarpment limestone was quit steep -- mostly vertical with blocky overhangs all over the place, and it was almost all done on natural pro. There were no camming devices available, but stoppers and hex's were placed between and behind blocks that often looked loose but were surprisingly solid. It was a FUN area, overlooking woods and farmland and Lake Ontario in the distance. http://www.climbers.org/rock/rock.html#Rattlesnake

I drove all the way to Tacoma just to meet Mr. Trask (I really don't like all this beer-drinking stuff) and he never showed....or at least never fessed up to his identity (maybe it is the warrants that worried him).

Stock seems to be a recurrent problem. They always seem to be out of ice screws during ice climbing season, and short on aliens or something in the Spring. I asked somebody about this once, and they said it is because the re-ordering is done when the available stock runs low, and is not triggered by the change of the seasons or any other consideration of current and ongoing climbing needs. It would be easy to anticipate that sometime this spring there will be a rush on rock climbing gear (when the weather starts getting nice, and particularly if that happens to coincide with Spring break at the UW), but they don't stock up in advance of such a rush but only order in response to one. Knowledgeable sales staff would be a plus, but more important to me is to have helpful sales staff. REI salespeople have mostly tried to be helpful to me even when they didn't know what they were talking about, such as when they called around to all the other stores to find the left handed ascender I was looking for (a certain Mountaineers instructor some years back had told his students all to go out and buy a single right handed one that I believe was to be used for crevasse rescue).

After returning from a long weekend involving some aid climbing, I once had my entire rack and a whole bunch of clothing and camping gear stolen out of the (locked) canopy on my pickup truck when I stopped for dinner in downtown Seattle. I searched dumpsters in the area the next day, but found nothing. But I also had kept all my receipts for buying the stuff, and I prepared a very thorough list of all that I had lost. The insurance company paid for the entire loss, less my deductible. I usually get screwed when I file an insurance claim, but this time they came through. Too bad you didn't lose more, because I'm sure whatever deductible you have exceeds your loss (assuming it was stolen from your car)!

Coming in via Scott's Pass would add extra distance to the effort, although that area north of the North Sister has an interesting collection of cinder cones. Shorter would be to start at Frog Camp and head up the west side from the Prouty Memorial, though only little longer and quite interesting is the approach skirting the base of Collier Cone and then up the Collier Glacier (it has very few cravasses, even in late season). From the trailhead west of Three Creek Lake (Squaw Creek, maybe, or Snow Creek?) you could do it without having to shuttle a car.

Devils Club gets a bad rap. I'd gladly hike through a forest of Devil's Club it it allowed avoidance of an alder thicket. For a truly heinous approach, try Luna Creek into the Pickets. This was once a recommended approach (in the old Routes and Rocks book).

I did that traverse from the Seven Fingered Jack col many years ago, in October, and found a lot of very loose talus and some dicy downclimbing but overall I would say it was no worse than many scrambles in the Cascades and it seemed to me the route was more or less obvious. However, many people have trouble with this, and I think it is because it is exposed and scary -- did I say it is littered with junk? Here are two trip reports that describe successful crossings: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000110 http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000115 In my opinion, the North Face of Maude is an outstanding climb because of where it takes you but not because of the climbing. The Entiat cirque is deep in the North Cascades wilderness but not really all that hard to get to, it is absolutely beautiful, and the summit views are outstanding. However, if you are looking for an ice climb, expect to be disappointed. Even at the end of the season I found firm neve snow (not ice) all the way to the final wind roll, and that final roll was no more than two hundred feet high (probably less), sloping up to a final twenty feet at perhaps fifty degrees. It was plenty exciting, and the top-out was great, but it just wasn’t an “ice climb” if you compare it to any of the standard ice climbs in the Canadian Rockies.

Solo climbing can be a great experience. In fact, I would say that some of my most memorable climbs in the Cascades have been those that I undertook by myself. It is a wholly different experience from climbing with a partner. I haven't done as much of it in the past few years as I used to, but I am sure that there are plenty of climbers who do. But they are more likely to be doing it for their own private experience and less likely to report their accomplishments than are other climbers.