mattp

I've done the N. Face in October, hoping to find ice, and there really was none. It was firn, more like firm snow than ice. And the rock traverse to get there was somewhat unpleasant as has been discussed on this board previously. I believe the ice fall is a little more likely to have some ice and it is said to be a slightly more interesting route. I would in some measure agree with Erik in that if you are looking for a spectacular climb, Mount Maude probably isn't a real good choice as far as great climbing-compared-to-amount-of-effort goes. But if you want to see some very beautiful wilderness, the Entiat cirque is about as nice as it gets and Mount Maude is one of the highest peaks in the State and worth climbing if you like that sort of thing. Also, the climb itself will probably be enjoyable.

The approach for the Price Glacier would actually not be a bad choice if solitude is high on your agenda. The walk in there is pretty decent for an unmaintained trail and it is not all that big of an elevation gain; Price Lake itself is surrounded by brush but it is in a pretty cool location with views of some of the coolest aline stuff in the state. But unless you climb up some vey steep and somewhat scary heather slopes to get to the top of the ridgelet beyond, there are no panoramic views and, speaking of views, there are absolutely no views of any kind until you get to the lake. So maybe it sucks. But you would probably find solitude there.

"the crux moves on p. 10 can be avoided by pulling on the bolts"

I believe that there was a T.R. not long ago for the Park Glacier, though they came in from Ptarmigan Ridge (if I remember correctly). The Schrund at the top of Boulder Glacier is pretty big and may present a problem, but if it does you should be able to head up the cleaver or the Park Glacier headwall. I've climbed this way in at this time of year and though I don't remember whether it was an unusual snow year or not, we found a blocking crevasse requiring us to exit onto a pitch of very treacherous rock, but it was 5.easy treacherous rock, and the 'schrund was small enough where we crossed it that a bit of ploughing with the ice ace was sufficient to get us up the upper lip without great fear of falling in. Heed Terrible Ted's complaints about the approach. The trail is bushy, buggy, and boggy. And then there is some brush and mud. But the camp is scenic and there are fewer people on this route than other relatively doable routes on the mountain.

quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: it is impossible for anyone to evaluate "good" for someone else regardless of how pure the actions and intents of someone making decisions for millions of others. Huh? Are you saying that we may disagree on the results of our evaluation? I think that is eaually true of the software engineer, the highway contractor or the social worker. Evaluating the "good" of what anybody does is subjective, is it not?

Arrrgh!!! (I am so misunderstood here.) To put it simply, I see black and white and red choices here: pay your taxes and participate as best you can in our political system, pay your taxes and ignore your obligation to participate as a citizen, or refuse to pay your taxes. I bet there are a lot of things that this great nation of ours is doing with your money that you approve of, are there not? If you believe in public services, whether they be simply the basic utilities like water, sewer and police protection, or if you are "socialistic" as the term is being used here and believe in welfare and public healthcare, you have to pay for it. So it is not a choice of "give it away or not," but one of how much to give away. I have always advocated participation to the greatest extent that one can, and although I do not like everything that happens at the hands of our government, I nave never said that it is worse because people participate in our civil and political processes - at least if the participatns are good guys (you conservatives and libertarians cause all the trouble). [ 08-28-2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

quote: Originally posted by MtnGoat: There is simply no shortcut, you either take responsibility for your morality and it's fiscal expression, or you hand it off and get what you get. To hand it off, expect it to go where you want it to, and to fail to watch where it goes or to participate in our political system would be asking for the shortcut. To pay your taxes while participating in our political system (by voting, contributing to candidates, canvassing, and yes even protesting sometimes), to engage in community organization or to volunteer for service projects ... that is far from simply seeking a shortcut. Where might this fit in your black and white analysis.

A toprope on Willis wall might well be just as dangerous -- maybe even more so because the rope itself would be sweeping rocks on your head.

quote: Originally posted by Jim: We're such a rich country it's too bad we waste it on so much military and business handouts. But, by god, we're free!

A chairlift would be cheating.

And maybe a "new route" while you are at it.

quote: Originally posted by csd345: there is a lot of loose rock, so watch yourself while descending the scree field as people higher are likely to send stuff down your direction. No kidding!! Not only is there a lot of traffic on the "standard" route and they frequently shower stones on you, but the descent from the normal route back down to the base of the west ridge is also treacherous. Coming down that way, I once stepped on a twelve foot rock that took a several hundred foot sled ride down the hill.

Cavey - I think you should go for a winter ascent!

Ray - Do you have something against the author or the publisher of Bow Valley Rock, or are you just suggesting how they might save their money for more important things like beer?

Mystic - I agree with you - sort of - but "impact" can be in the eyes of the beholder. At several climbing areas the land managers have been more concerned about the proliferation of "trails" and cliffside erosion than they have been about the bolts. And it has been pointed out that the tiny amount of biomass dissplaced by a whole crag full of bolts is far less than that cause by a short section of trail. Never-the-less, I would generally agree with you that because the installation of a bolt is more permanent, the impact of such an installation must be given greater consideration.

When packing my crampons in a duffel bag for travelling, I protect the points with a crampon bag or maybe just Duct tape. But on the outside of my pack I suppose it is possible that they could cut something, but it takes a minimum amount of care to be sure that they aren't pointing at my thermarest and I have never had it happen to me. And for those that worry about grams, just think how much that wet denim weighs.

Dr: but check - counter-check. They have infiltrated the government and managed to dilute the labeling standards so "organic" now includes a whole host of substances ("derivatives" and "inert" ingredients) that I do not think you would recognize as organic.

Just in case you're having a bad day, I'll try to remember not to flip you off anyway.

quote: Originally posted by Greg W: Don't assume low handgun death rates in these other countries. Since Great Britian banned handguns, armed crimes involving guns has risen 40%; this is also the case in Australia. Similar examples exist other places. This is an interesting statistic. But even if this is true, I wouldn't assume that the ban on handguns CAUSED an increase in those crimes. Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I'd prefer it if I didn't think that every other guy I flipped off in traffic was packing a concealed weapon.

So is being able to own a gun or drive a gas-guzzling SUV more important than living a long and healthy life?

I know I sound like a broken record, here, but don't you guys know how to turn your crampons around so the points face each other? I do not recall a single instance when my crampons tore my pack or anything else, nor have I ever lost them, when I just lashed them on the outside of my pack. Am I just incredibly lucky? Note: When people lash their ice axe on their pack, using the little loop on the bottom and having the shaft point upward, I HAVE seen the spike poke things and people. But everyone considers the ice axe loop essential.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you there. His administration may prove more effective at getting their agenda through than was Clinton's, but they aren't done yet and so far I am not all that impressed at their effectiveness (aside from the fact that I don't like their politics). One thing I am sure of, however, is that I am embarassed to have him as president.

Greg - I disagree about Carter and Clinton. Both of those guys were much more intellingent than Bush or Ford. And that was part of their problem -- it is often said that Carter was inefecive because he failed to delegate properly and that Clinton was hampered by being arrogant but not often said that either of them lacked intellectual capacity.

quote: Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing: There's something very satisfying about buying, for example, organic over pesticidal produce ... and knowing that, in a small way, you're sticking it to some faceless big business you disagree with Except that now the big companies like General Foods are getting into the "organic foods" thing. They got you, my friend.

Tonight's topic (as posed to me by a climbing equipment vendor not too long ago): Is your "problem" getting worse? Does climbing get in the way of work and family? Is it affecting your internet personality? Does it somehow seem that most of your social activities somehow revolve around climbing? (If the answer to any of these questions is yes, we can help...)