mattp

Take it to spray, boys.

Freeclimb: I think you're talking about Liberty Ridge, now. Personally, I would probably take two days to get to thumb rock because when I climbed it (in early July), the rocks started rolling off the rockbands on the lower part of the ridge by noon -- so I'd rather climb up to thumb rock in the morning. And I'd descend the route, too, rather than the carry over. But that's just me.

Why don't you guys think if something clever to say? Suck butt nuggets and your mom said you couldn't get it up just isn't all that intelligent.

Snowboy - The pie charts compared "with" to "without" beacons, but did not address whether or not the "with" victims might have had a hand or piece of clothing or something exposed (so in these cases the beacon wasn't necessarily a help). I bet further research would reveal that the "with" victims were travelling with companions who knew how to rescue their buddies or were otherwise more likely to be in situations where recovery was more likely. I'm not saying don't use the beacons, but I'm just questionning the idea that the pie charts show that beacons make you safer. Food for thought. I apologize if this is a rehash of what I've asserted before.

Billygoat- I'd gladly go up there with you and, yes, later in the winter is better for Whitehorse at least, though the road to Three Fingers is usually blocked some time early in the winter. I wouldn't describe either one as "high" on the burly scale, but both are certainly bigger outings than going to Heather (Skyline) Ridge -- Whitehorse and Three Fingers are more like "moderates" on the N. Cascades burlieness scale. I'll be ready to ski some time after Jan 1. I do simple incorporations and stuff but I don't really practice in the area of business law.

Puyallup; Skookumchuck; Piker's Peak; Melted Tower; Camp Hazard

I'm not debating Kurt's information, but I should add that my friend KJ was there Tuesday and he said it was really great -- "a month late, but the best opening day I've ever had." He was looking for someone to go back again today.

As a follow-up to my previous story, let me tell you about when Diana and I went for round 2: skiing at Railroad Pass. We drove up to Pemberton on Friday after Thanksgiving, and this time I figured I didn't need to impress her so we slept in the back of the truck Friday night. As could have been anticipated, we breathed a little too heavy and the canopy dripped condensation all night. She was NOT impressed. Saturday morning, we drove up to Railroad Pass to go skiing, and the road was poorly plowed -- there was at least a foot of new snow on the roadway at the pass and we had to dig out a spot where we could park off the roadway and go skiing. Despite the fact that there was about three feet of snow on the ground, and it snowed all day, there really wasn't enough snow in the woods and we had claw our way through brush and a couple of times we had to take the skis off and crawl. We managed to climb about a thousand feet up the ridge to where it starts to become a little gentler, but we never made it to timberline and we never got any views. It sure was cold at our lunch stop, though. This was real NW ski mountaineering and Diana was NOT IMPRESSED. We got back to car before dark (thank god) and I figured we could still have some adventure and hey, honey, how about we go over to Bralorne and see about this old mining area. She was worried because I'd refused to fill the gas tank in Pemberton and the road was pretty snowy. But I wanted some adventure, god dammit, so off we went. Driving to Bralorne really was an adventure. After a few miles, we turned right where it said "Red Owl Pub --> " but there were no more signs after this and the road forked many times. There was almost two feet of powder snow on the road, and it was drifting up over the windshield as we went; it was damn near impossible to tell which was the main road whenever we reached a fork or turn (sometimes I'd get out and scratch the ground to see if I could tell which was "newer" gravel--and apparently I guessed right each time). Diana was worried about the gas tank and about getting stuck, but we drove for what seemed like hours and finally, as I was beginning to get nervous, we rounded a small canyon and there it was: the Red Owl Pub. We had found Bralorne. We went inside and ordered some soup and started drinking beer. We were quite a hit at the bar. Apparently they don't get many visitors there, because a logger-looking guy came over and asked where we were from. "Seattle? Really? The last time somebody came -- they came on a motorcycle...and they were from Salt Lake City!!!" So we proceeded to hold court as one after another of the regular patrons cycled through our table, asking where we were from and telling us about how they were keeping the town open and they hoped to be first in line for all the loot when the gold mine reopened – sure to be next year. One guy in particular, an old Austrian, told lots of stories and amused us with his lapses into German that were more and more common as he got more and more drunk. And then somebody came along and ushered him out and told us "he's really a nice guy." We wondered if perhaps he was a old WWII war criminal or something because they seemed very protective. When the bar closed, we drove down to Gold Bridge and here is where I really blew it. I insisted that rather than getting a room in the hotel we would once again sleep in the back of the truck. It rained very hard, and again the canopy dripped all night, and Diana was REALLY NOT IMPRESSED!!! But after a warm breakfast, we set off down the road to Lillooet and I was redemeed through events that were (almost) entirely beyond my control. The road around -- what is it? Carpenter Lake? -- is pretty rough. In spots it traversses landslides about five hundred feet above the lake, and on this occasion the road was 1/4 or ½ gone in some of these spots. We drove past the dam, entered a canyon, and all of the sudden there was a pile of rocks in the road in front of me. Wham! I got out and inspected, to find that I'd blown a tire and bent a rim. No problem. I got the tire tools out and, started jacking up the truck, and the jack wouldn't go high enough. Problem. Well not really, because I piled rocks under the transfer case or something and then put the jack on a rock and continued. Then I went to get the spare tire down from beneath the truck. The lowering mechanism wouldn't budge. Problem. Now we were stuck, 20 miles out of Lillooet, with no spare. Soon enough, some ice climbers came along and parked a couple hundred yards away. It turned out that we were parked right below Salmon Steaks, and they said that if we were still there in six or eight hours, they'd help us. I set up a stove on the tailgate and we cooked some coffee and started in on a picnic. A logger came by, and he had all kinds of tools including a ten pound sledge and a BIG wrench. But he broke his wrench trying to free our tire. He left. Another logger came by, and he had a radio that could reach his dispatcher. The dispatcher called the guy from the tire shop, who was home in bed with the flu, watching a hockey game or something. They said he'd be out there to help us in about two hours. Sure enough, the guy showed up and he had the boltcutters needed to free our spare. Then he followed us back into town (just made it, running on fumes by this point), straightened our rim, and sent us on our way. The bill? $100 Canadian. We drove back to Seattle, and we agreed that it had been a fun adventure. Diana loves to tell the story of being treated like VIP's at the Red Rooster Tavern, and how everybody was so nice when we were stranded in the canyon. It had been a grand adventure, allright, but that was the last time I got Diana to go on a ski camping trip. Maybe this year.

The road to the Three Fingers trailhead was open just a couple of weeks ago, and it is probably still open. The hike is a little rough, though probably easier than the hike up to Loan Tree Pass, and you certainly start a lot higher. The route may overall be a little simpler though I believe the total distance is probably more than Whitehorse and when I went up there last Fall we lost the trail and wandered around for an hour or more. If you were to try this one, you might want to look at climbing via the glacier rather than following the trail around from Tin Pan Gap, though be wary of early season (not very well filled in) crevasses. Both these peaks are pretty cool.

I have skied it in the Spring, when the "snow gulch" route was skiable all the way from the summit to perhaps five hundred feet feet above the base of the mountain. At that time of the year, it is a GREAT ski outing. Right now, that route is probably not the way to go because the lower part of the gulch will be rocky and a pain in the neck, followed by some bush thrashing up to at least 4,000' or so -- so you should probably look at the (regular) lone tree pass route. If you are lucky enough to find a relatively painless transition from carrying your skis to skinning, it might be OK. Watch the avvy hazard and snow conditions, though. The route travels on just about every aspect, and traversses some steep slopes in the alpine zone. The summit icecap is really cool and the summit pinnacle itself is easy enough but never-the-less quite exciting.

"It's all just a cheap sham in the name of freedom" It is not going to be cheap.

Personally, I'd pay $5.00 a day to go to Peshastin or Index, but I'd hope that they would then set up Index with a nice bathroom and some picnic tables, or maybe maintain the trails, because it would bug me to pay the fee and get nothing for it. By the way, Trask, do you think Gary Locke is some kind of liberal? With democrats like that, who needs republicans?

Oh, and I note with pleasure that when I was returned to the "recent posts" page, the substantive discussion has briefly outweiged the "spray" topics. Wow!

CascadeClimber: I don't get it. So you dislike government bureaucracy and believe that there is too much law protecting you from yourself and that the State shouldn't give you a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt. What has that got to do with user fees? Are you suggesting that there should not be a backcountry ranger or climbing ranger program at Mount Rainier? What we are seeing in the increased reliance on user fees in Rainer Park and in the National Forests, I think, is the fact that these agencies are receiving less funding for recreational programs. I'm not so sure their budget for supporting concessionaires or building roads so our timber can be sent to Japan are being cut by the same amount, but never-the-less, I believe their reports that they have less funding for trail maintenance and climbing rangers. Would you have them cut these programs (that would certainly be a move toward "smaller government," or do you think that if we protest the fees they will get the money from somewhere else or what? JB: I don't know, but I bet the guided outfits actually "contribute" more to the park than private climbers and impact the mountain less. I believe they actually assist with rescues sometimes and conduct work parties and other "volunteer" efforts, and I believe it is RMI that sets up the trail (snow trench) above the DC every year and who sets ladders where needed to bridge crevasses. They may not pay as much per-person-per-day (I have not idea), but I bet they are more self-reliant that other climbers as a general rule, less dependent on rangers for information about current conditions, less likely to need NPS rescue, etc., Sure, the large parties have more impact on your experience on any given day on the DC route, and they obviously bring a lot of people to the mountain who would probably not otherwise be there, but does the businessman from Chicago have any less right to be there than you do? Although I have climbed Mount Rainier many times, I have never been to Muir in the summer and I haven't been to Camp Schurman in the summer since they started guiding that route in large numbers, so I haven't seen them in action. But it doesn't seem to me that a climber interested in any one of the other 33 routes on the mountain is really threatened much by their activity up there. And what does this have to do with the fee increase? Freeclimb: Do you think there should be a climbing ranger program? Assuming the fees go to pay for that program (which may or may not be the case), there would be a choice between a user fee like this one and using general tax money to pay for the program, or upping the campground fees or something and making some other user group pay.

I mostly prefer the double ridgerest because it is lighter and will not fail by develping a leak. However, it is bulkier and while this is not an issue for most general mountaineering, it can be a concern on technical climbs and when bushwacking. A thermarest/ridgerest combo may be slightly warmer and more cushy, though, and you don't look like quite such a bozo with the big bulky pack when your pals packs are smaller.

Anybody who is bored at work care to entertain us with more inspirational tales about the good times?

Many people routinely assert that a bivvy bag adds 5-10 degrees warmth to any bag. I've never owned a bivvy bag so I can't say for sure, but it is definitely my impression that these people are wrong and that condensation is a major issue with a gortex or similarly relatively unbreathable bivvy bag. For extra warmth, I sometimes carry an old synthetic overbag that I bought many years ago -- it was cheap because they are not in fashion and it is thin and cut roomy enough that it slips over my down bag. The condensation all ends up in this outer layer which is easier to dry than my down. Wearing extra clothes to bed is certainly a good idea (contrary to the claims of Colin Fletcher who, in the '70's, wrote that wearing clothes in bed only made you colder and sleeping naked wast he way to go), and in particular I find that wrapping an extra sweater around my neck and shoulders helps reduce drafts even when I am using the hood on my sleeping bag. Think about the ventilation on your tent or the drippage in your snowcave. Although the air temperature in a tent will be a little higher if you shut the windows, your bag will be completely covered with frost and, after a few nights, this will take it's toll on the warmth of your bag unless you dry it out each day by, say, running a stove in the tent or hanging the bag in the sun (huh? in the Cascades in December?). In a snowcave, be sure to carve the roof into a smooth dome shape so no drippage will get onto your bag. Look also at your insulation beneath the bag. I find that whether I am sleeping on a thermarest or a ridgerest, an extra half length ridge-rest is well worth it and frequently makes the difference between a comfortable night and a wait-for-morning night.

I have also read that it is thought complimentary with the Rumsfeld doctrine of complete dominance over both friends and foes alike. As you put it, we will have something they don't and this may be intended to threaten our friends in Europe just as much as it is intended to threaten our not-so-friends in other parts of the world.

"for the recored Jefferson Airplane rocked--Jefferson Starship, not at all " I agree that the Starship happened after they started to go downhill, but wasn't Blows Against the Empire one of their albums? That one was worthy.

Ben - Don't take it personally. Guessing what you might have to say, I would agree that a statement that sounds like "extreme ski descents are either unworthy or irresponsible or both" is a little harsh but you gotta admit that there is some reality in what they are saying. If you go to ski Willis Wall, and if you get hurt, you will have attempted something that almost everybody thinks would be foolish and somebody is going to have to go after you. And if you ski one turn at a time, side step off rocks, maybe even make a rappel, and generally pick your way down some extreme face just to be able to say you did it, that would be contrived (such tactics have been applied by some skiers if not by you, and they report their descents as ski descents). On the other hand, I don't think extreme skiing is any more wreckless or contrived than lots of forms of climbing that Special Ed and Pencil Pusher would probably better appreciate and I don't think it would be irresponsible or unworthy for the right skier to ski Willis Wall in the right conditions. I'd like to see your response in this public forum though I can understand why you might not feel inclined to enter into such a discussion. -Matt

"The more dependent we become on foreign sources for our staple supplies, the more vulnerable we become to outside control." Is that why you think we should not seek to coordinate any move away from the use of oil and let the market and the individual self-interest of people like you who drive a big truck that is completely empty of any cargo 90% of the time drive any move toward energy-efficiency?

Right you are Muff, it's all true and you nailed the reason why it worked out so well. Now lets hear some other stories.

I say you should go ahead and pay the fee, but make sure the person taking your fee has to listen to at least a short diatribe about how such fees are unfair. Why do I suggest paying these fees while I still don't buy a NW Forest Pass? I guess it is because I believe the climbing program at Mount Rainier is well run and that, while the fees are unfair, I don't think playing hide and seek with the rangers is the answer. More participation in public meetings might help, and letters to the Superintendent and perhaps to our Senators, but I think the politics of the situation are driven at least in part by the fact that the general public seems to have come to accept the idea that user fees place the expense on those who use the services being funded -- even though this ignores the fact that the park service subsidizes all the vendor operations and the maintenance of roadways and that rediculous Henry M. Jackson visitor center, so only a very small segment of users are actually being asked to pay for services. Until the politics of the situation change, I don't think the fees are going to go away and playing hide and seek with the rangers is, in my opinion, likely to generate more problems than it will solve.

For digging a snowcave, look for a huge snowdrift with a very steep face in it -- something you will probably only find at or near treeline or above. If you can dig in, starting above the bottom of the drift face and dig upward, the snow more or less falls out by itself rather than having to be dragged and tossed out of the hole.