mattp

It seems to me inarguable that just about every weekend there is a group or maybe a couple of groups of cc.com climbers who seem to converge on some climb that was discussed during the week on cc.com. Big Four ice caves, Observation Rock, Coleman Glacier, Eldorado ... whatever. But just as with the climbs featured in Jim Nelson's books or in Fifty Crowded climbs, anybody who doesn't want to visit with the masses can simply climb elsewhere. There was probably nobody on Pyramid Peak or Spider Mountain (two relatively approachable peaks with excellent ice climbs that were probably in good shape last weekend). One could lament the crowds caused by cc.com or they could simply go elsewhere, but there is nothing wrong with somebody wanting to go where other climbers are suggesting they may find a fun route in good shape.

Thanks for the link, Jim. After briefly scanning that report, I am inclined to agree with you that the tribe's history and practices seem well documented and I am prepared to accept the idea that climbing is more intrusive (to them) than a highway tunnel. But I'm not so sure the Access Fund shouldn't request that the rights/desires of climbers be taken into consideration in any U.S. government agency (Forest Service) management plan. After all, the Access Fund is a climber's advocacy organization and their job is to promote access -- not necessarily with a blinder to other groups needs -- but at least to ask that access be discussed. This may not be a situation where there is any workable compromise and it may have to be that climbing will either be allowed or it won't. I didn't notice anything about the spiritual use of the area being seasonal, for example, and there is no way the modern American climbing community would agree, for another example, that only males should climb there. But the Access Fund, in promoting a certain alternative that favors climbing access, is following their mission. Perhaps they should should have given at least some acknowledgment of the history of tribal usage at Cave Rock, but the balancing of priorities and claims and rights and such is to be undertaken by the Forest Service, not the Access Fund.

If you do not line up something in advance, you may do OK to just show up and see who's there. When I was there fifteen years ago, I first climbed the regular route with a parter I had lined up in advance and we had a good climb but I wanted more. So I picked up a partner for one of the south face routes, an Aussie named Malcom, and he turned out to be a much better partner than my first one. I've picked up partners this way when travelling quite a few times, and so far I have never regretted it.

I don't have any information for you, but my guess is the road is fine. There has thus far been very little snow down to the trailhead elevation -- what is it - 3000 feet? -- and very little rain for a long time. Even if by some freak of nature you have to park well down the road, it would be an easy walk to the trailhead.

Nice one, Mr. T.

Tex is right when he says "some of you are just posting like the hardest crack you have climbed and stuff". In my case, Slow Children IS one of the harder cracks I've climbed, but I think it is also a great pitch so I seconded the nomination. However, the title of this thread was "best moderate crack pitch." Ropegun says a "moderate" crack pitch is one that is 5.11a and under, but I think Fred is more on the money when he nominated the Great Northern Slab -- although short, it is a very clean and classic crack and it is moderate by any pride-inflated standard. Surprisingly, at 5.6 it is one that almost demands crack technique. Yes, a sportie could lieback and edge climb it to avoid using a jam, but that would probably make it at least 5.9. I notice nobody nominated Damnation.

Not to be snide, Lawgoddess, but Josh is right -- the approach is not that bad. In fact, it is not bad at all. You will find few North Cascade mountain climbing approaches that are easier. Go for it!

I suppose I would have to agree with you, PP, that some of those listed may be less than one of "the best." Toxic Shock, for example, is good enough, but the only reason it is popular is that it is one of few truly "moderate" climbs at Index. If it were 5.11a, for example, I doubt anybody would walk all the way up there for a climb that is frequently wet at the start, is discontinuous, has that usually slimy step-accross, and really only has two fifteen foot sections of the "crack" climbing that the climb is known for.

Of the pitches listed here that I have done, I agree that all of them are excellent. I think Sloe Children is particularly so because it is continuously steep and challenging but there are plenty of stances where one can shake out and place pro, and it finishes with that wild lunge for a rounded knob. But moderate? You may be a good climber, Ropegun, but I don't think 5.11a crack climbing can properly be called "moderate."

I heard the same story as Mike. Hey Mike: why don't you go out there and climb it and come back with the TR?

quote: Originally posted by gapertimmy: I'm locking the board tonight at 7PM for the remainder of the holiday weekend to fix all of this shit. You can't do that. It is our god-given right to ignore our in-laws while we spray on the internet. You owe us. We'll have to send Caveman and a dozen other thugs down there to make you start it up again if you shut the board down.

That is the Bruce I'm talking about. In the 1970's, he was the most consistently active climber at Grand Ledge, wrote the "guidebook" and more or less the president of what was called the Michigan Alpine Club. He moved west for many years, but I think he eventually moved back to Michigan, maybe in 1990 or so. Bruce was/probably still is a good man.

Yes, it was Owl and Thistle that I was thinking of. Kells is that Irish fern bar near the market, isn't it? It looks as if Dante's would be a popular choice for tonight, and we can pick a downtown location for some time soon. Maybe by next week the Bon Marche will light their Christmas display and we can go caroling.

Is the picture posted above the "high strength tie-of?" If so, it looks like a good way to anchor a rope to a tree to me. The multiple wraps, if snug, will probably eliminate any spinning of the rope around the tree and minimize damage to the tree and to the rope. If you are using a rope as a long runner so you can set a top rope using a tree that is far back from the edge, be aware of the possibility that the rope can swing back and forth (and sweep rocks from the cliff-top or suffer some abrasion) if your climb is not directly below the tree. Also, consider the possibility that a climbing rope may stretch when loaded, even with a relatively small load from a top-rope fall.

Sorry. My compouter or the CC.Com server is slow and I thought my post was lost. [ 11-25-2002, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Dante's is at 5300 Roosevelt Way NE, in the U-District. See you in hell or maybe you could beg for special consideration and we could go back to - what was that place on Post right by the ferry dock that we've been to three times - was that Kells?

Like you said, Scotch: not to put words in his mouth. But I bet when David gets back from his weekend he'd offer to set you up with some and if for some reason he's not -- I will.

Yes, I think it IS fair to say that he has sought to keep it quiet about Squire Creek Wall. I'm not entirely sure I can blame him, though, and he is not the only one in on this conspiracy.

That was pretty much my point, Allison. Although I complain about REI, the fact is they obviously serve a viable business market and they also serve most of us, too. When I want to buy a specialty item - like a helmet or a pack or a pair of crampons or something - I go to Pro Mountain Sports, and I check out Feathered Friends and sometimes Marmot. When I have a big list of items I want for an extended vacation, I am more likely to go to REI. A small shop like PMS cannot carry folding tables, camp sandals, stove fuel, bug dope, topo maps and climbing gear, and I bet they don't want to deal with parking passes either. I don't always plan ahead and I often don't want to mail order what can't be had from the little shop, or to have to go there and to Big Five and Fred Meyer as well. What the specialty shops may lack in breadth, they make up for in qualities that may well be beyond the scope of REI: they can provide real expertise and train their employees to know their stock and the needs of local climbers in a way that is probabliy not feasible for REI. The small shops may be able to pay special (personal) attention to a special order as well. [ 11-22-2002, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Will Bruce Bright be there?

I think wool is better than synthetics for long underwear, though I am not sure you have to spring for the "smartwool." I get whatever is cheap at www.christianoutdoorwear.com (sierratradingpost) and it seems to work just fine.

You may be right, chucK. But she continues to taunt us and maybe she means it -- what are we to do? Meanwhile, there are places like (for Seattle shoppers) Pro Mountain Sports and Feathered Friends and Outdoors n' More and Second Bounce, and we can head up to Vancouver for the "coop" that isn't quite what it could be but is pretty darn good. And for mail order or internet - there's no limit. So aside from the issue of whether or not REI has strayed from its mission, it is about convenience. If REI truly delivered what they say they are offering, you could go to one Superstore for your ice screws, camera pouch, outdoor evening fashion wear, latte, and snow park permit and you'd be good to go. I'm glad to hear that Julie says they are "working on this," though in some ways I almost hope not. If they are able to undercut the smaller specialty shops, we might end up with less access to gear and equipment advice rather than more.

Geek- I don't know how often you go out climbing but Chuck points out what would (to me) seem a valid consideration: if you are worried about UV exposure it is not the duration of your ownership but the number of times you've been outside with the thing. I know that some rope manufacturers suggest retiring ropes, even if they have been stored in the closet, after some rediculously short period of time like three years. So I guess they think exposure to oxygen degrades a rope but I can tell you I and most people I know do not retire an unused rope simply for "old age" until it is at least ten years old. My twenty year old edelrid helmet still feels supple to me, but I have bought a new one because a yellow helmet with a chip out of the rim just doesn't present the right image. [ 11-22-2002, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Back to the topic, I would say that (within reason) you are probably going to be "qualified" to try a lead as soon as you feel ready to do so. Some people will study the nuances of placing pro and equalizing anchors and agonize over all the technical stuff for years before they feel competent to try the sharp end, and they may even still feel they need to complete several "practice leads" with a top-rope as a back up before they do a "real" one. Others will just jump up and throw theirselves at it on their first weekend of climbing. I wouldn't suggest the latter approach, but I do think a relatively inexperienced climber can safely try leading if they first practice placing and removing gear on the ground (receiving feedback from somebody who knows what they are doing), if they have followed and cleaned at least a couple dozen routes that are roughly similar to what they intend to lead, and if they have practiced downclimbing technical rock so they will be capable of retreating should it prove necessary. With what some might call a modicum of preparation and some common sense, it is not unreasonable to try to lead a moderate climb (the guidebooks generally point out climbs that are dangerous and you obviously should not try one of those). It might be a good idea to wait until you have an experienced climber who is willing to watch and who you think could get you out of a jam should you get in trouble, but in general I think common sense and caution will go a long ways to keep you out of trouble. You sound as if you are not likely to be someone who is foolish enough to try a serious lead before you are ready. [ 11-21-2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: mattp ]

Like Sarah said, it is beautiful up there. However, I bet the climb would be challenging right now because the telemletry station reports about 18 inches of snow at 5500 feet at Washington Pass and also that the pass received the rain on Tuesday so it will probably be crusty.