mattp

I don't know about the soft shells, Cracked, but I once went skiing up at Snoqualmie Pass in a rainstorm where we were using umbrellas on the lifts. I was drier in my windbreaker, freshly treated with reviveX or something, than every one of my friends in their gore tex. They were all experiencing leaks in the g-tex and sweating at the same time. I had neither problem. I'm not saying the stuff doesn't work (I'll argue that point tomorrow, though) but it is not the wonder material that many people proclaim it to be and, properly speaking, I think it is neither waterproof nor truly breathable (of course, water isn't breathable so nothing is breathable when it is fully drenched in wet weather).

Drilling on lead with a power drill is in some ways scarier than using a hand drill. You can put the hand drill away such that it might not hurt you in a fall. I'd sure hate to take a fall with the power drill in my hand or hung around my neck.

You might be able to do that, Ursa, but I'm not aware of any tape, and I don't exactly know what kind of glue you would use, either, that would actually stick and be readily removeable. I think ChucK's suggestion about trying the "removeable" bolts, or Mr. E's about using the 5 piece might be more practical. I should note that Erik is correct in saying my "tinkering" step in route development should not often involve bolt removal if you do as he described and truly mark potential placments, pretend to clip them, and discuss each one at significant length witih at least two or more different people, etc. But mistakes can happen never-the-less, and I have found it to be the case that you don't know what you have until you actually go for the test-lead. Mr. E. - how many of those 5-piece bolts have you placed, and in what kinds of rock?

Hate is everywhere, rob bob. Why must you be so cold and wall yourself off from the world that you cannot see it?

They probably would do well, fern, and who knows - they might even have more to add than you might think from all the sneering about how wimpy and pathetic and nonexistent these folks are according to those who are debating with me in this thread. That enlightened future is ahead of us but, for now, I am the lone voice of civility and sanity in a wilderness of humiliation and hate. Well, er, ... Al Pine likes me, anyway. I think. Don't you Al Pine?

Correction. I am acknowledging the fact that I am overtly trying to do so. Those who fight the good fight in defense of spray, or those who simply like to propogate combative rhetoric or keep the one-liner flame alive or who proclaim their sense of outrage at somebody's cheast-beating trip report are just as actively imposing their sense of culture on other board users but they just aren't as clearly acknowledging it. Culture is not what one person says in an agument in the spray forum. The culture of this site is the sum total of what goes on here.

You call me elitist and condescending, rob bob, and a self-appointed minister. However, I didn't cast aspersions about your character, but instead attemped to directly address the points made by you, dru, or whoever else debated my position here - while virtually none of you guys has really tried to address my arguments head-on. I guess that is elitist, huh? I'm sorry you don't like my Rumsfeldian focus group. Would you like me to circulate an internet petition or start collecting notarized affidavits?

Erik's recipe is very good, but he left out the final steps: Test Lead Tinker These can be major steps in the process. It has been my experience that even the most careful route-setters do not really know what they have created until they go back for the test-lead of their new masterpiece. It is then that you find the clips that seemed to be in a straight line actually cause the rope to saw into a pinching crack behind a flake or that those easy moves that you thought didn't need pro actually turn out to be very scary, or that rest stance just below the crux is in fact not a good place to clip because the bolt causes the rope to get in your way so it is easier just to skip that crux bolt. You also find out, on the lead end of the rope, that the holds you scrubbed and which felt just fine on a toprope aren't really all that clean feeling and that you gotta go at it one more time with the brush, or whatever. The "tinkering" process is often necessary to render a truly well-thought out climb.

You misunderstand me here, robbob. You can spray hard in spray, and a significant number of your smart-aleck comments and brilliant critique are going to be tolerated elsewhere on the board, as well. Yes - I think a lot of the stupid rhetoric is just that: stupid. In my view most of the spray posts on this site are niether interesting nor funny - they are pointless one-line retorts, personal complaints related to somebody's private argument, recycled jokes that werent funny in the first place, and just plain empty banter. Go back and look at some spray thread from a month ago and see how interesting it is, outside the immediate context of trying to outdo each other right now this minute. Some folks think it is fun, and that is why we set up the spray forum in the first place and, yes, we allow some of that to creep into the rest of the board because we don't want the site to be "stiff." The problem that I have with all of this is that your exercise of your god-given right to spray is compromising somebody elses right to come onto the board without having to be subjected to that crap. Do you restrain yourself because the "gaper of the day" is someone who doesn't like to be ridiculed? No. Do you hesitate to trash a route report if you think it was written "in poor style" or describes a "pathetic" attempt to climb some "trivial" route? No. The second issue I have with the hostile, mysogynistic, or inane material it is that, for some reason, those who don't like the spray seem to be unable to figure out that they can avoid the food fight if they lurk in the route report forums, the newbies forum, and the rock climbing forum. This is in part because you spray-bots find it fun to constantly test the limits of our patience by pissing in those other forums, but it may also have to do with the format of the front page or just the fact that we have an established culture on this site that pervades the place - a culture where honest discussion is discouraged - even in the climbers' forums - and bravado is what carries the day. We hear so much criticism of of "cheastbeating" but when was the last time that one of the spraylords who ridicules Wayne for being a cheastbeater actually showed any humililty? Like I said, I DO laugh out loud at some of the stuff. I changed the route report forum policies last winter, and last month I was vocal in objecting to Dwayner's filibuster tactics when it comes to bolting discussions -- but don't worry, robbob, I'm not trying to stop you from having fun. If you want to battle it out with dicknose over who can get in the last word about which one of you has a bigger schlong, go for it. But do it in Spray and don't whine if I or somebody else joins your thread to say you are pathetic. Like you keep saying: it's spray, isn't it?

I would. I agree with the sentiment of what you posted, babnik, but I like cotton. I wear cotton pants and shirts every chance I get. I also don't wear gortex or any modern "softshell" jacket or anything like that (though the schoeller pants are pretty comfy). I wear cotton shirts and underwear even on a winter alpine climb, and I carry a rubberized raincoat and a windbreaker that is little or no more sophisticated than the one your father wore to baseball practice when he was in little league. I do so not because it is cool, but because this stuff works for me. I am often quite comfortable when my friends in their goretex shells and lates generation capilene underwear equivalent are freezing because they've sweated themselves all wet. I also vastly prefer wool mittens to any synthetic I have ever tried, and I kind of like wool sweaters. Old school, I guess.

Slappy- Read my post that you just quoted, and you will see that I am trying to focus not on route reports but on the board as a whole. Then go back and read the thread to see that I am correct where I say in that post that you just quoted that I did not take the thread into a discussion of trip reports. Dru did, when he tried to sidestep my statement that the rancor on this site scares some people away. First I complained about dogpiles, then when people said there was nothing wrong with being obnoxious, I said that I had spoken to people who were pretty much afraid to post to the site and would not at all post a route report. Rather than respond to the comment that they were uncomfortable with the board as a whole, Dru figured he had a better shot at attacking my statement by focussing on the route reports only. When his rebuttal of that narrowed interpretation of my statement was proven incorrect, he fell back to an even narrower position regarding route reports written by newbies. But I was in actual fact quite clearly talking about the entire board, and I don't believe I suggested or meant to imply that the problem is one that only affects newbies. Some of my friends who refuse to post here because of all the rancor are indeed very good climbers with many years' experience. Are you threatened by my statement that there are some people who don't like being flamed?

I think a trip report about the Tooth is probably something that may actually be more valuable than one about some gnarly test piece like your latest new winter climb of the North Norwegian Buttress. Although I may be more likely to spend time reading the latter, I would do so only for entertainment purposes since I can't climb any gnarly test piece and those who can climb said gnarly test piece don't need to read a trip report for beta. On the other hand, the guy who may be making the Tooth as their first peak climb is the guy who actually is going to research their climb on this site. Trip reports serve a variety of purposes beyond their literary value and this site is intended to serve climbers of all ability levels, whether they are good writers or bad.

Necro - two quesitons: (1) Does it hurt you if somebody posts a gay-assed trip report about The Tooth? (2) Is a report about The Tooth inherently less valid than a report about, say, Mount Slesse?

I don't think it is valid to say "sorry Wayne, but that's the truth." Even if you think his underlying tone WAS pretentious, his route reports are interesting and I'd hate to see him or somebody like him stop posting to the board (though I'd have to say that he seems to be able to tolerate quite a bit of abuse so this may not be a real concern in Wayne's case). When it comes to "well written, interesting trip reports about interesting places done in good style" beauty is in the eye of the beholder and one person's interesting report is another persons snooze-fest or cheast-beat. Not only that, but I don't think someone should have to clear this bar in order to be able to post in the route reports forums without being criticized for it. Also, as Darin notes, even some that reports that might generally be held in this regard draw fire for a variety of reasons -- often related to personal issues that really don't matter to anybody but the immediate involved parties. However, the incidence of flameage in the route resport forum is somewhat of a diversionary topic thrown out by Dru. I stated that I thought it was sad to see folks dog-pile on Wayne once again and I noted that I spoke to people at both ropeup events who said they were unwilling to post to this site because of what they perceive to be a generally high level of acrimony around here. One may argue that Wayne or Allison or Scott or Dan Larson get what they deserve, but I really don't think so. Yes, each one of these people has drawn attention by somehow stepping outside the limits of what we may think is an admirable way to present themselves, but I don't think that merits the kind of flame that these people have received and I would argue that it shows a distinct lack of courage and creativity for someone to jump onto an ongoing bandwagon and bash them just because everyone else is -- even though I will admit that I sometimes find myself laughing out loud at the latest retort or photoshop image that is making fun of somebody for the 100th time. One might also argue that thin-skinned people don't belong on this site or that we shouldn't try to protect them. I don't think it is honest to argue that such people don't exist, however. Lastly, I'd note that there are people around here, myself among them, who just don't like to see all that garbage. In my view, copious amounts of insulting rhetoric just clutter up the board and are kind of like litter thrown about the base of a crag.

I too have never used mine. There have been a few times when they might have come in handy but I did not have them with me, and these have generally been icy conditions where it would be just as easy to take the skis off and put on a pair of aluminum crampons - that is if you are wearing a ski boot that you can loosen up and walk comfortably in. Occasionally you might find breakable crust situation where that would not be such a good option. And, yes, the problem largely arises when traverssing. Wide skins stick to an icy surface most of the time if you can keep your skis flat on the ground such as when climbing straight uphill.

RBW, I think Dru knows he's full of shit. He is certainly one who feels free to flame people, myself included, in just about any forum on this board -- and he certainly doesn't hold back when he thinks the author of a route report was cheastbeating or something. He may think that the whiners around here are too thin-skinned, but I don't think he can honestly say that you won't be flamed for posting a route report.

Mr E, the people who complain about subversive antics or one-upmanship or whatever are often those most guilty of same. You are right, though, that in general a serious thread will be respected - though I think only because there are moderators hovering around - and I told some of those thin-skinned folks at the ropeup that they are taking things too seriously if a joke about their newbie status or whatever was too threatening for them.

Trask, you don't even believe that crap. There is nothing mean spirited or abusive posted outside of the Spray forum???? Make of it what you will, but I'm serious -- lots of people think the abusive rancor holds the site back.

If you really want to catch hell, Josh, head up to Mount Rainier. If you are good at navigating with a compass and altimeter, or if you have a GPS, you can go as high as you want. If not, don't stray too far above Pan Point.

Slappy, you have your opinions and I have mine. The fact is, I talked to lots of people at the last two weekends' events in Leavenworth and Smith. Many of them complained about the mean-spirited rhetoric on this site, and several said that because of this they would not post a trip report and were pretty much afraid to post at all. I did not talk to a single person who said that the site would benefit from more of the hostile rhetoric or even that the current level of such abusive rancor was a good thing. Not one. As far as my personal accomplishments, I already added an entry in that "top three" thread and I've posted plenty of trip reports.

Exfoliation Dome in Darrington. It has lots of the attributes that Dru described for his Cheakamus Canyon entry, but in a good way: a deadly approach with sketchy third class, weird ripply rock, weird pro, spaced bolts, half-assed scrubbing, mountain views, and (no highway) logging and mining scars.

That depends on your standards for dryness, Jopa. Some parts of that rock are going to be dripping from now till next July, but some of the cleaner parts of it dry out pretty quick. Silent Running would probably be OK the first day after it stops raining if the last day of rain wasn't a real heavy one, (there'll still be some wetness and fear factor on the first and last pitches, though) but if you don't want to have to climb any wet slab, I'd wait at least two days after rain like we are having today -- and there will still be a drip or two on most climbs there.

I'm sorry to see that Wayne is the latest target of the cc.com dogpile. It is pathetic, really. So what if Wayne is egotistical? There's nothing wrong with a quip or two here and there, and there is realy little wrong with this thread except that it is yet another example of how we seem to like to bag on each other for no reason other than boredom and we can't even be creative in bagging on each other. One guy takes a shot at Wayne, and then it's open season. Come one, come all -- we can all show how smart we are by slamming Wayne. Sad. This board is full of assholes who are far more offensive than Wayne. We have all kinds: perverts and pricks, fuckups and freaks.... you name it. Wayne is a good guy, and a hell of a good climber. If he wants to generate buzz about this summer's climbing accomplishments on a climbing bulletin board, what really is wrong with that?

Anna backed off a lead and left behind only one piece at her high point, removing all other as she descended (or maybe she was lowered). I think there was speculation about whether that one piece was any good. I think the point was not that she didn't know how to build an anchor so much as that she didn't know how to place gear. I'm beating a dead horse, I know, but in reflecting on this thread I guess I should explain the background of where I am coming from here. I take the position that I do because when I learned to climb there was no John Long anchors book. There was Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills. In the second edition, the one I used, there was no discussion of equalizing anchors, or of the desireability of not having chains of biners and draws and such in your anchor system. I don't think there was anything about directional anchors, either. I read that book and started climbing, and my first lead was on a three-pitch route in the Gunks, a gear-pitch with overhangs, and I took a leader fall. I climbed El Capitan before I ever learned anything like the sophistication that today's climbers think is necessary to master before they climb a route like Moscow. I'm not critical of someone who wants to learn skills, I'm simply saying that you can safely climb a moderate freeclimb at just about any crag around without knowing how to set up an official John - Long - approved anchor.

I believe the Forest Service has extensive rulemaking powers on Forest Service lands and there would be no Constitutional issue as far as I can tell. It would be a political matter. In Leavenworth, for example, the rangers told us that they don't want to get involved in climbers' bolt wars. If some mandate comes down from Washington, they'll enforce it but I don't blame them if they don't want to get mired in the internal politics of any user-group and I bet they largely take the same approach to questions about logging practices or horepacking or other activities in the District.