mattp

I'm not clear on Alpine K's "big distinction" but I'd like to point out that Paroah Sanders probably sold almost all of his copies of "Karma" to hippies! I think you started the trend, Dru. Hippy music, and cool (though only a couple of good tracks):

JK- Yes, I agree that the general public will percieve climbing as dangerous no matter whether sport climbing or solo rock or Himalayan death fest. But the fact is that I have had more friends die climbing than from any other single cause (disease, car accident, etc.). Climbing IS dangerous. Solo climbing is MORE dangerous, and top-roping is LESS dangerous. Sorry, but I disagree: climbing is downright dangerous and difffenrent styles of climbing pose varying degrees of unnecessary risk, apart from the skill or awareness of the individual engaged in those specific activities. I used to argue that MOUNTAIN (Alpine) CLIMBING was dangerous and that ROCK Climbing was not. But recently I wonder if this is true. Dane- I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but it sounds to me as if you may not want to recognize what I believe to be the basic truth here: climbing is dangerous.

Yeah, but..

That's not what you said when I played it for you, Mr. K. And then, when I played this: I'm telling you, folks, Alpine K loved it !!!!!

I wonder if Forrest's "equation changes" question might just be a question whether you should be willing to re-evaluate the situation as the climb unfolds? Maybe the equation changed because you forgot your shell jacket, as he cited as an example of the "factor" change early in this thread, but maybe the only change is that you find yourself sunburned, or tired, or you've lost the route a couple of times and it is later than you expected when you finally face that final headwall. Sometimes pushing ahead is a good idea and sometimes not; how do you tell the jitters that we experience on most of our truly big or "pushing it" climbs from plain old good sense? (In retrospect, I've concluded that I called it right and wrong, but do I really know what would have happened?)

This one has some of that Arabic yodelling on it, too: Good late night road music.

He actually made that up. I like Paranoid -- but it's just that I like this so much better (last time I was at his house I played it for him and he liked it too):

better?

Jopa- I can't really quarrel with your statement that you do not feel you can judge other people in any real way other than to say that you may one day find yourself in a position where you are one the parties in court, in effect asking others to decide in your behalf, and you will then have no legitimate complaint if all the jurors are 55 to 75 year olds who may not be inclined to understand your situation.

And I also have this one:

Dru - No, I don't, but I have this one:

Dru - Are those you parent's records or have you been sneaking a peak at my vinyl collection? I believe I have a copy of just about every one of your choices so far.

Jopa, the thing is you cannot and you do not "opt out" of our legal system unless you decide to leave the country and relinquish your citizen. You can pretend to have done so, until the day that you are mugged or the day that you are involved in some terrible accident or are arrested for a crime, or ..... then you'll need that system.

I'll cast my vote for going ahead and showing up if you are called for jury duty. It is generally a good experience to serve on a jury and you will probably learn something (though sitting around in the jury room is pure boredom). Jopa - though I could be wrong, I think you are copping out on your civic cuty and citing "freedom of choice" and "I don't have a right to judge my peers" is probably more of a justification for you just not wanting to do it than anything else. Yes, it is confusing and maybe even scary to sit on a jury and feel responsible for someone else's fate in that way - but it IS how our system works. One of the problems with juries is that you cannot get a jury that is representative of our society in part because most folks don't want to serve so the jury pools are dominated by retirees and lower level employees of large corporations that pay their employees their full wage while they are on jury duties (like Boeing or something).

Find a place where you can dig UP into a big snow bank and the diggings will fall out your front door, saving a lot of work (most people look instead for a spot with a flat area immediately beneath a steeper snowbank, because it is a little more comfortable to start digging in such a location). A good night in a quiet cave can more than make up for the work involved - as opposed to sleeping poorly in a wind-rattled tent. Also, if you are going to be in there for a full winter night - all 16 hours of it - the additional comfort is a big plus.

You are right, Cavey, but it is easier to ask again than to run a search - and quite often the search function doesn't work anyway. Meanwhile, you never know if somebody might have some new views on the matter or maybe even some current information.

It should be quite interesting! If anybody wants to head up there from Seattle, we might want to carpool.

When the weather is nice, some will find the Aasgard route better because you spend more time above timberline, looking at the views. However, even though it is maybe 1/2 mile shorter with a few hundred feet less elevation gain, I don't think it is any easier because the trail is better coming in via Snow Lakes. At this time of year, Snow Lakes for sure is the way to go because you'll be able to retreat back down the way you came if the weather craps out on you. Chances of weather crapping out in November: huge.

My experience with empty bolt holes is that they can be VERY hard to find -- Twice I've stood there on the exact same footholds from which I drilled a hole and had a hard time finding the empty hole that I had drilled several months earlier! This was in Darrington, were debris washes down the cliff and forms a camouflaged trap-door over the holes, and maybe this wouldn't happen at Smith, but aside from this issue I'm not sure removeable bolts are a good idea for the reasons stated above and this is just one more reason not to use them.

As I noted in another thread, somebody (ScottP?) scratched a path through the slide debris and drove their car up there last weekend.

It might be pretty good for fall Alpine in the North Cascades: FRIDAY NIGHT...MOSTLY CLEAR. FREEZING LEVEL 2000 FEET. SATURDAY...MOSTLY SUNNY. FREEZING LEVEL 3000 FEET. SATURDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY. FREEZING LEVEL 3000 FEET. SUNDAY...PARTLY CLOUDY. FREEZING LEVEL 4000 FEET. SUNDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY. FREEZING LEVEL 4000 FEET