mattp

Slappy- Read my post that you just quoted, and you will see that I am trying to focus not on route reports but on the board as a whole. Then go back and read the thread to see that I am correct where I say in that post that you just quoted that I did not take the thread into a discussion of trip reports. Dru did, when he tried to sidestep my statement that the rancor on this site scares some people away. First I complained about dogpiles, then when people said there was nothing wrong with being obnoxious, I said that I had spoken to people who were pretty much afraid to post to the site and would not at all post a route report. Rather than respond to the comment that they were uncomfortable with the board as a whole, Dru figured he had a better shot at attacking my statement by focussing on the route reports only. When his rebuttal of that narrowed interpretation of my statement was proven incorrect, he fell back to an even narrower position regarding route reports written by newbies. But I was in actual fact quite clearly talking about the entire board, and I don't believe I suggested or meant to imply that the problem is one that only affects newbies. Some of my friends who refuse to post here because of all the rancor are indeed very good climbers with many years' experience. Are you threatened by my statement that there are some people who don't like being flamed?

I think a trip report about the Tooth is probably something that may actually be more valuable than one about some gnarly test piece like your latest new winter climb of the North Norwegian Buttress. Although I may be more likely to spend time reading the latter, I would do so only for entertainment purposes since I can't climb any gnarly test piece and those who can climb said gnarly test piece don't need to read a trip report for beta. On the other hand, the guy who may be making the Tooth as their first peak climb is the guy who actually is going to research their climb on this site. Trip reports serve a variety of purposes beyond their literary value and this site is intended to serve climbers of all ability levels, whether they are good writers or bad.

Necro - two quesitons: (1) Does it hurt you if somebody posts a gay-assed trip report about The Tooth? (2) Is a report about The Tooth inherently less valid than a report about, say, Mount Slesse?

I don't think it is valid to say "sorry Wayne, but that's the truth." Even if you think his underlying tone WAS pretentious, his route reports are interesting and I'd hate to see him or somebody like him stop posting to the board (though I'd have to say that he seems to be able to tolerate quite a bit of abuse so this may not be a real concern in Wayne's case). When it comes to "well written, interesting trip reports about interesting places done in good style" beauty is in the eye of the beholder and one person's interesting report is another persons snooze-fest or cheast-beat. Not only that, but I don't think someone should have to clear this bar in order to be able to post in the route reports forums without being criticized for it. Also, as Darin notes, even some that reports that might generally be held in this regard draw fire for a variety of reasons -- often related to personal issues that really don't matter to anybody but the immediate involved parties. However, the incidence of flameage in the route resport forum is somewhat of a diversionary topic thrown out by Dru. I stated that I thought it was sad to see folks dog-pile on Wayne once again and I noted that I spoke to people at both ropeup events who said they were unwilling to post to this site because of what they perceive to be a generally high level of acrimony around here. One may argue that Wayne or Allison or Scott or Dan Larson get what they deserve, but I really don't think so. Yes, each one of these people has drawn attention by somehow stepping outside the limits of what we may think is an admirable way to present themselves, but I don't think that merits the kind of flame that these people have received and I would argue that it shows a distinct lack of courage and creativity for someone to jump onto an ongoing bandwagon and bash them just because everyone else is -- even though I will admit that I sometimes find myself laughing out loud at the latest retort or photoshop image that is making fun of somebody for the 100th time. One might also argue that thin-skinned people don't belong on this site or that we shouldn't try to protect them. I don't think it is honest to argue that such people don't exist, however. Lastly, I'd note that there are people around here, myself among them, who just don't like to see all that garbage. In my view, copious amounts of insulting rhetoric just clutter up the board and are kind of like litter thrown about the base of a crag.

I too have never used mine. There have been a few times when they might have come in handy but I did not have them with me, and these have generally been icy conditions where it would be just as easy to take the skis off and put on a pair of aluminum crampons - that is if you are wearing a ski boot that you can loosen up and walk comfortably in. Occasionally you might find breakable crust situation where that would not be such a good option. And, yes, the problem largely arises when traverssing. Wide skins stick to an icy surface most of the time if you can keep your skis flat on the ground such as when climbing straight uphill.

RBW, I think Dru knows he's full of shit. He is certainly one who feels free to flame people, myself included, in just about any forum on this board -- and he certainly doesn't hold back when he thinks the author of a route report was cheastbeating or something. He may think that the whiners around here are too thin-skinned, but I don't think he can honestly say that you won't be flamed for posting a route report.

Mr E, the people who complain about subversive antics or one-upmanship or whatever are often those most guilty of same. You are right, though, that in general a serious thread will be respected - though I think only because there are moderators hovering around - and I told some of those thin-skinned folks at the ropeup that they are taking things too seriously if a joke about their newbie status or whatever was too threatening for them.

Trask, you don't even believe that crap. There is nothing mean spirited or abusive posted outside of the Spray forum???? Make of it what you will, but I'm serious -- lots of people think the abusive rancor holds the site back.

If you really want to catch hell, Josh, head up to Mount Rainier. If you are good at navigating with a compass and altimeter, or if you have a GPS, you can go as high as you want. If not, don't stray too far above Pan Point.

Slappy, you have your opinions and I have mine. The fact is, I talked to lots of people at the last two weekends' events in Leavenworth and Smith. Many of them complained about the mean-spirited rhetoric on this site, and several said that because of this they would not post a trip report and were pretty much afraid to post at all. I did not talk to a single person who said that the site would benefit from more of the hostile rhetoric or even that the current level of such abusive rancor was a good thing. Not one. As far as my personal accomplishments, I already added an entry in that "top three" thread and I've posted plenty of trip reports.

Exfoliation Dome in Darrington. It has lots of the attributes that Dru described for his Cheakamus Canyon entry, but in a good way: a deadly approach with sketchy third class, weird ripply rock, weird pro, spaced bolts, half-assed scrubbing, mountain views, and (no highway) logging and mining scars.

That depends on your standards for dryness, Jopa. Some parts of that rock are going to be dripping from now till next July, but some of the cleaner parts of it dry out pretty quick. Silent Running would probably be OK the first day after it stops raining if the last day of rain wasn't a real heavy one, (there'll still be some wetness and fear factor on the first and last pitches, though) but if you don't want to have to climb any wet slab, I'd wait at least two days after rain like we are having today -- and there will still be a drip or two on most climbs there.

I'm sorry to see that Wayne is the latest target of the cc.com dogpile. It is pathetic, really. So what if Wayne is egotistical? There's nothing wrong with a quip or two here and there, and there is realy little wrong with this thread except that it is yet another example of how we seem to like to bag on each other for no reason other than boredom and we can't even be creative in bagging on each other. One guy takes a shot at Wayne, and then it's open season. Come one, come all -- we can all show how smart we are by slamming Wayne. Sad. This board is full of assholes who are far more offensive than Wayne. We have all kinds: perverts and pricks, fuckups and freaks.... you name it. Wayne is a good guy, and a hell of a good climber. If he wants to generate buzz about this summer's climbing accomplishments on a climbing bulletin board, what really is wrong with that?

Anna backed off a lead and left behind only one piece at her high point, removing all other as she descended (or maybe she was lowered). I think there was speculation about whether that one piece was any good. I think the point was not that she didn't know how to build an anchor so much as that she didn't know how to place gear. I'm beating a dead horse, I know, but in reflecting on this thread I guess I should explain the background of where I am coming from here. I take the position that I do because when I learned to climb there was no John Long anchors book. There was Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills. In the second edition, the one I used, there was no discussion of equalizing anchors, or of the desireability of not having chains of biners and draws and such in your anchor system. I don't think there was anything about directional anchors, either. I read that book and started climbing, and my first lead was on a three-pitch route in the Gunks, a gear-pitch with overhangs, and I took a leader fall. I climbed El Capitan before I ever learned anything like the sophistication that today's climbers think is necessary to master before they climb a route like Moscow. I'm not critical of someone who wants to learn skills, I'm simply saying that you can safely climb a moderate freeclimb at just about any crag around without knowing how to set up an official John - Long - approved anchor.

I believe the Forest Service has extensive rulemaking powers on Forest Service lands and there would be no Constitutional issue as far as I can tell. It would be a political matter. In Leavenworth, for example, the rangers told us that they don't want to get involved in climbers' bolt wars. If some mandate comes down from Washington, they'll enforce it but I don't blame them if they don't want to get mired in the internal politics of any user-group and I bet they largely take the same approach to questions about logging practices or horepacking or other activities in the District.

Your argument is flawed. In one sense you imply it is ok to condone threats in a pm. In the other sense you imply that antogonizing after such a threat is even better or just the same. What the hell are you talking about? I did not ever say I condoned somebody's threatening other people in an attempt to keep one's project secret, nor did I say it was "the same" to antagonze the guy afterward. It sounds to me like the unnamed guy was out of line, but the bottom line here is that I really don't know what he said to Dru and I don't know what motivated him to say whatever he did say. It's Dru's call whether he wants to "out" somebody's projects or their tactics. As to the liquor, I would have to agree that tequila and gatorade is not the way to go. If Alpine K could scan in the booze list for the Slesse climb, we could see if those guys showed better taste in their choice of mixers....

But Cavey, Mr. Beckey pulls that kind of stuff all the time. Well, maybe not the threatening part. You're right. The un-named guy is a complete ass and Dru should go out of his way to antagonize the un-named guy whether he wants to or not. And what kind of liquor does this unnamed guy intend to take to Mox? We have a right to know.

Absolutely, Bunglehead. What I am saying, though, is that you don't have to know how to equalize anchors and make a (whatever that is) SRENE anchor to set a safe belay on a popular moderate free climb at any crag that I know of. Popular moderate multipitch climbs pretty much all have roomy belay ledges in safe locations with easy-to-place pro right there (and, if not, at least one bolt or tree or something -- usually two). In fact, the inexperienced anchor builder would likely place theirself and their partner in much greater danger trying to set a top-rope at some single-pitch choss heap like Vantage than they would setting a belay anchor on a 5.6 classic at Smith. Similarly, in terms of anchor-building only, they'd probably be in greater danger belaying their buddy on some 4th class summit pinncacle atop one of the Oregon volcano's or something.

I disagree here, Mr. B. Everybody has their own style, and if one guy wants to be secretive about their projects, that is their business. There is a long history of rivalries and secret projects in this sport, and lots of people don't think that is pathetic. If it is not a game that you wish to play, I don't see why you'd want to go on a campaign against other people's fun. I would agree that it is, at best, obnoxious to threaten others who are not willing to protect their secrets. The guy should have kept their mouth shut in the first place (if it was their big mouth that brought the subject to light) or (if it wasn't) they should just accept the reality that there are others out there looking for the same kinds of climbs. But like I said, Dru can decide whether the guy's actions dictate that he goes against that person's wishes, and only part of that answer has to do with the fact that the guy threatened him or was otherwise obnoxious in some manner.

No way. Those guys took beer and alcohol and stuff?? If he really wanted beta, Dru should have asked: what kind of liquor do you need for the 14th pitch? The 15th?

Harry, I don't think you have to worry so much about offending the name of the great Fred Beckey. You've drawn minor flame, but nothing like the full wrath of the Caveman, and we've managed to keep a good discussion alive.

Yes, we've seen enough of that kind of thing to know that what you say is true. I would be surprised to see a moderator delete a thread for that reason, though. If so, they'd deserve to have you "out" their secret project but I guess you'd have to decide if it is so important to you that you want to start into that kind of personal struggle with somebody.

Too bad, because your inquiry might better have belonged in the N. Cascades forum, and I doubt that I would have bothered to delete it and it might have gone on to become the BEST THREAD EVER, even if I DID think it looked like something more appropriate for a private email.

Do you believe in the Area 51 conspiracy, too?

Dru, I agree that your inquiry might have lead to an interesting thread. It was posted in a manner that looked like a private email (the title was "question for Jim Nelson" and you asked a question that appeared to be directed solely at him), and a certain moderator mistook it for such. I'm sorry you put so much thought into something that was removed, but I don't think any real harm was done.