mattp

Depending on her sensibilities, Trask, maybe not. Go back to spray.

My guess is that Juneberg is legit. If I had just been to ropeup over the weekend, I'd probably check the site to see what it is all about. She may or may not be impressed with the welcome that she has received here.

It wasn't ChucK. It was this guy:

Flash, I don't support closing areas or trying to limit the number of visitors. I advocate trying to organize climbers as a user group and working directly with land-managers or property owners as much as possible -- just as has been done at Smith. Where we are causing some kind of impact, whether it be that our dogs tied up at the base of the crag are scaring hikers who come by with little kids or that our large numbers are eroding some talus gully or whatever, we have to try to take some responsibility for the matter or we are likely to be shut down. My major point here is that I think we will be more able to address any problems that may arise if we do not harbor some illusion that we are the "good" users and it is all those other people (motorcycle riders or loggers or horespackers or whatever) who are ruining the place. I hear lots of climbers ranting and raving about their right to have access to our public lands without showing any apparent appreciation for the fact that their exercise of this "right" imposes some very real and long-term effects on the areas where they climb and upon other user groups.

Catbird, there is one crag (two named rocks, actually) in all of Leavenworth that is closed for a few months each year. They said this is one of two eeries in the entire Leavenworth Ranger District, and they want to protect them because they are special. I don't think it is a big problem for us to comply with this very unrestrictive closure. I realize that raptor closures are more extensive in some other climbing areas, and I know that part of what John Harlin kept saying is true -- that there have in the past been "experts" who say that climbers do not deter nesting activity (or at least not always so) and there may be unclear scientific support for raptor closures -- but what's the big deal about cooperating with this minimal closure? I was very encouraged to talk to two rangers from the Leavenworth Ranger Station who seemed to be quite aware of the issues and who generally appeared to be supportive of climbing in the district and mostly quite reasonable in their views on things like trails, rare plants, birds, bolting ...

Catbird, It may be a question of "semantics," I suppose, when DFA read's my comment about "ripping up" the ground and assumes that I am critical of the erosion containment measures taken at a place like Smith. Or maybe the distinction between controlling or reducing impact and mitigation may be a question of semantics. But my point is that we need to realize that we are a high impact user group and we need to deal directly with that fact rather than to pat our selves on the back for being "environmentally sensitive" or trying to hold ourselves out to the land managers or other conservation groups as some enlightened or harmless lovers of wild lands

Now she really feels bad, Dave. She went to the Sloop specifically to introduce herself to you, and you don't even remember.

Flash, you misunderstand me. I have participated in several work projects at five or six different climbing areas, and I am not critical of the landscaping done at the bottom of climbs such as that undertaken at Smith. It DOES constitute a serious modification of the cliffside environment, though, and the whole management approach behind it rests on the assumption that there are and should be lots of climbers concentrating in that particular spot. I think Smith is a great park. In my view it is a better rock climbing area than any we have in Washington and I think a big part of the attraction of the area lies specifically in the fact that it has been so heavily modified for climbing. I just don't think you can describe trampling the place and then rebuilding it, installing several hundred sport climbs, and hanging out in groups of a hundred as "low impact" techniques or signs of any great push toward environmental preservation. I like being able to climb at highly developed climbing areas, but I sure wouldn't want to see every potential rock climbing area developed that way.

Hikerwa, that beer I brought was actually from cc.com. Paid for in horescock dollars.

Lammy, I disagree. When I started climbing, lots of rock climbers were also backpackers and there was much more of a "no trace" ethic. The old Chouinard catalog, linked on this site this week, is an example of an impashioned plea for conservation that I do not believe would happen today. Climbers are much more into performance than they used to, be, and the drive to train and to perform means that they run out after work to get a quick workout - not to go climbing but to get a workout or to "work" their line - and this was rarely if ever done in the days of yore, and I think it leads climbers to want to have quick ready access to the crag with nothing in their way - and that this means they accept or even want a more modified climbing environment. Climbers today are learing to climb in gyms where they become used to an artificial environment and this, too, increases their acceptance of a modified climbing environment. This is part of the reason why we rip up rocks and rebuild the base of the cliffs at most sport climbing crags and some "trad" areas these days. In addition, there is in the gyms a big social scene (not that there wasn't one at climbing areas of yore, but the scene itself is now more a part of the experience, I think). When they go to Smith Rock, many of today's climbers actually ENJOY having a big scene with a hundred climbers milling about at the base of the dihedrals, and they expect to have flat areas all bordered by landscape timbers. This kind of thing was absolutely unheard of in the past. Bolts, too, are becoming much more widely used and most climbers are a lot less likely to view a bolt as an intrusion upon the rock environment than they used to. There is no question in my mind that today's climbers focuss less on preserving the crag environment than climbers of 25 years ago, and much more on enhancing it. When I climbed in Yosemite in the '70,s the base of the walls were littered with lunch bags containing turds, true, so that situation has probably improved somewhat. However, I don't think there is any less trash at the base of the cliff in Index or Leavenworth than there ever was.

Indeed, Cavey: its a popular place. I believe Dave Morales, for one, has done at least one unreported line that very closely follows if not duplicates that reported by Spagnut. I also think Alan Karney may have done a climb there as well. Perhaps it is exactly this kind of confusion that is leading Lowell Skoog to propose a Cascade climbing journal.

Before Vantage was widely publicized, lots of folks went to Peshastin in questionnable weather. If it rains in the canyons, there is a good chance it will still be OK down in the orchards.

Topping out on Bugaboo Spire, we noticed a black cloud coming from the West and figured it was time to leave. Fifteen minutes later, lightning hit the Howsers, and pretty soon we started seeing green sparks all over the place. As we set the first rappel, the rocks were buzzing and our hair was standing up on end; even my siser-in-law's braided pig-tails were sticking up! Two "old guys" came running accross the arete from the main summit and asked if they could join forces and share ropes wit us to get down more quickly. We said "sure." The first one jumps on our rope and after he completes the rappel his buddy throws two coiled ropes to him (nobody's hanging on to either end of them) and he sets the next rappel. The electricity is at this time getting really intense: we hear short-wave radio noises when you raise and lower our arms and stuff. Two quick raps down, and these guys set it up again for us. Running back and forth on the arete, though, one of them is left behind and just as we are pulling the next rappel rope down we see it stop, and slowly creep back up. What'r you trying to do, he asked after he raps down to join us. After that second set of rappels, we are out of the spark zone and we take the time to introduce ourselves. What'd you say your names were? Tom and Sandy. I was a novice at the time but I was reading the climbing magazines and quite impressed when our heroes turned out to be two guys I'd read about: Tom Frost and Sandy Bill.

Thank god. There is a voice of reason in a sea of madness...

Should you change your minds, I'd be sure to see you had a refill on your stein. (Deleted post notwithstanding.)

It's OK. You don't have to take home a keychain 'biner, Fence. But be sure to bring your beer stein.