mattp

Ropeup is going to be fun, and there will be something for everybody whether they bring their kids for an introductory session at Bruce's Boulder or they want to show off how badass they are by climbing such-and-such a route unroped in front of the assembeled masses at some roadside crag. At past rope-up's and at TimmyFest, several people have met climbers who have turned out to be ongoing regular partners, others have done their first leads or climbed their first multipitch routes, and pretty much everybody who wanted to climb something had ample opportunity to do so. I highly encourage folks to ignore the bitching on this site and come on over if they want to hook up with some other climbers and have a good time. Even Marylou.

Robert, For general glacier travel, most climbers do not use intermediate pro and for short bits of ice or technical snow such as one would be likely to encounter during a crossing of the snow-covered portions of the Coleman Glacier and many climbers would use a sitting belay (unanchored) or simply have the party members keep a tight rope without setting up any formal belay whatever when they are crossing questionnable snow bridges or climbing down into and back out of a minor crevasse. I think Jason's point was that for climbing up and down and around closely spaced crevasses and seracs such as when crossing a hundred yards of highly broken ice to reach a serac practice climb on the lower part of the Coleman, it will be very difficult to manage the rope in such a way that it will offer any real protection from the likely source of injury - a misstep and slip on a low-angle bit of ice - and that one would have to set intermediate anchors and belay if they really wanted to safeguard their "clients."

Fairweather, your caution is commendable but I think you may be overemphasizing the hazard ratings. I believe the hazard level was "moderate" when those people were buried in the backcountry near Crystal last winter, and I think it was "moderate" or less when that group of school kids was killed up at Rodger's Pass. Also, I'd add that just about any powder day has a hazard rating of at least "considerable."

Greg, Coastal Alaska might be different. However, down here, I am perfectly comfortable going to either Yosemite or Yellowstone without a gun -- and I don't feel the need to carry a gun when I go visit my sister who lives in the central district on a Saturday night. Us liberals are badass.

JoPa- As long as you are not shy about it, you should be able to hook up if you show up on Saturday morning. If you don't find somebody around the campsite, head to one of the crags where there are one-pitch climbs and ask if you can take a ride on somebody's rope (you could try this on longer routes, too, but you might have less chance of getting a yes answer).

Fairweather, you may right that I am thinking of Spring rather than Manning. I generally do not support closing logging roads such as this, and I share your disappointment over this particular decision but I should say that the I know plenty of environmental extremists (folks who have worked for the Sierra Club or who have organized Green Peace campaigns, or etc.) who do NOT favor closing wilderness areas or access to wilderness areas in this manner. The different stance with regard these issues stems from the fact that these that I know are recreational users, but not because they are any less ardent in their environmental politics. Consider, too, those who advocated establishing national parks were almost certainly viewed as "environmental extremists" in their day, and much of the wild National Forest recreational land that you enjoy were largely protected from logging, mining and grazing through the efforts of "environmental extremists" of the '70's. Environmentalism is not necessarily your enemy as a wilderness recreational user. Indeed, you only rant as you do because you are currently able to enjoy the successess of past environmentalists -- I bet you would be singing a different tune had they not been successful and all of your favorite hikes were now devoid of any big timber, as it would in fact be if the timber industry had their way.

Fairweather, I don't claim to know Manning's position on all of these issues, but I think I've seen him at public meetings arguing against restrictions on the number of hikers allowed to enter an area, so I am somewhat surprised by your statement that he wants to lock us out. What exactly did he say, and in response to exactly what issue?

I generally agree with Carl that it is more important to learn to minimize the chance of being caught in avalanches than to recover your buddy once an accident happens, but one point for backcountry skiers to remember is that there is a high correlation between good skiing terrain and snow with avalance danger. That is, the slopes that are friendly and fun for skiing are generally of a steepness (25-40 degrees) that is most likely to avalanche, and if they are open enough to ski -- even if tree skiing -- they are open enough to slide. Also, the prime powder that we all go looking for is that which has not settled after a big dump and, again, is among the most dangerous of types of snow that one could venture into. If you are out there chasing the powder and hunting down fresh ski runs, you are going to trigger avalanches and you better take it seriously! Beg, borrow, or steal -- do whatever you have to to to get a beacon (you can probably get a used one of a model that is a few years old for a lot less than a new one), and learn how to use it. Then try not to let the fact that you are carrying a beacon lull you into the stupid idea that you can get buried and your buddy is going to save you!

Since when was it a requirement that one be original around here? That would render just about all of us to the sidlines, save perhaps Teddy Ruxpin and Donna Topstep and their friends.

yessir.

I can well imagine why you wouldn't like that short, light tool with a narrow shaft and tiny pick on it on steep water ice, particularly if it was cold outside. But that is not something that you will encounter on a standard cascades alpine climb -- at least not in the summer, anyway. More likely would be a short bit of firn ice, or a blocking crevasse or something. Would that tool be wholly inadequate for a little bit of climbing on a climb where it otherwise remains in or on your pack?

What kind of climbing were you doing?

Some long term NOAA thing I just found through a link on Lowell Skoog's page said it was supposed to be wetter but not colder than average for the next couple months, then warmer but not wetter than average for the main part of the winter. There are lots of chart/maps, but the ones I looked at suggested this. That could spell a poor year for both ice climbing and backcountry skiing if it turns out that we see mountain roads blocked by early season snow (the snow line is frequently very low during November and December storms) and then a relatively warm year after that.

J_B, your study results don't surprise me, but there could be an alternate explanation other than "media bias." It could be true that people who get all their news from commercial TV stations really aren't paying all that much attention to the news anyway and, particularly in the case of those who mainly watch FOX news, they may only be looking for affirmation of what they already think is true -- that the US is the only good nation in the world (though maybe Britain or Isael occasionally do something right) and Mr. Bush is doing great things for us.

That looks like a decent tool, Lammy. The pick looks like it sticks out far enough it might even work in neve without swapping it for an alpine pick, and weight is generally a good thing when you actually are going to use the thing. How short is the "short version?"

Some will opt for light weight and less of a brush-anchor on the back of their pack; others want the Cadillac ice tool and most advanced leash. The bottom line is that pretty much any second tool will work for just about any climb. I've done some of the hardest alpine ice climbs of my career with what most people would say were inadequate tools just because those are what I had with me at the time, and I've successfully wallowed up soft snow with a bent-shaft waterfall tool. Consider the trade-offs, take whatever you like, and don't worry that the wrong choice of tools is going to prevent you from reaching the top.

A 40% chance of showers is not all that bad of a forecast, but it could be better...

Right you are, Amber, that you can pound pitons with a longer tool, and most would prefer your full length tool with a hammer head for Liberty Ridge or for any climb where there will be actual ice climbing (but such climbing is a rarity on Cascade "alpine" climbs - at least in the Summer time). I also agree that the choice of tools is indeed "conditions dependent." But I bet most cc.com climbers would be quite comfortable on most cascade alpine routes with the shortest version of this as their second tool: Kake didn't say where they were headed, but if they were heading to Alaska or planning to take up water ice climbing, I'd make a different recommendation. Even on Liberty Ridge, I used a second tool for only a few hundred feet and by that I'm not suggesting that I would recommend a minimal ice tool for the second tool on that particular route, but I think one could get by quite adequately.

I'd probably recommend a long and fairly stout second tool with a hammer head on it for that route, as you may use it to pound pickets but you will not be using it to pound pitons, there is no place where the long shaft is going to get in the way, and you can lean on it for thousands of feet of climbing. Depending on your comfort level with the route, however, you could get away with a minimal second tool and some people just use a ski pole for their second tool.

If you are not expecting to use it, the best second tool is the smallest and lightest you can get. I have used an old alpine hammer for this purpose for years, and something like that "third tool" made by Grivel might be a good thing to bring along if you were worried about maybe encountering a moderate 'schrund problem or something on an otherwise straight forward climb. If you are headed for more serious alpine climbing, however, you may want something more serious. Even for relatively easy ice climbing, many climbers like to have a second tool that nearly resembles their primary one in terms of length and weight. Realize, however, that a 50 cm tool is kind of a nuisance for pounding pitons.

In my view, the question of whether Beck should serve as a self-appointed representative of the climbing community in meetings with the Leavenworth Ranger District or Mount Raininer park officials is a valid one. At the same time, yet another "Beck-Bash" does not add much to that discussion of the meeting to discuss guiding on Mount Rainier. I'm sorry if I offended anybody by moving their post to Spray.

Prussik Peak. It's a long way to go for a day climb in my book, but lots of people do it that way and although it is not huge, it is one of the most visually striking granite peaks in the State. The Beckey Route on the South Face is 5.9, I think, and the W. Ridge is 5.7. The Burger-Stanley, also on the South FAce, slightly harder at 5.10a if I remember correctly. I've climbed all three and they are truly outstanding routes in a very beautiful setting. The approach via Snow Creek is not much further than going in from the Eightmile side and overall it may even be easier.

That was me at Asterisk Pass. Yep.

So what's the deal, Greg? You too cool for us or what?

Jon, you would almost certainly see the bottom piece fall out pretty quickly if you did it "the other way around" if I understand what you are saying correctly.