mattp

It all comes down to what you want from the site. DICK is absolutely right: talk s*$t about route setters, and most of them are going to do whatever they can to avoid having information about their routes posted on the site. Nobody in this discussion has credibly refuted that simple fact. I have had numerous new route setters tell me that they do not want their routes discussed on this site because they believe folks here will talk shit about them and maybe even try to cause trouble with the rangers or go out and start chopping bolts. They are right: with notable exceptions, this site's discussion of new crag developments or routes has been mostly extremely negative or even hostile -- while I bet most climbers enjoy and recognize some value even in the worst of these overbolted "atrocities." Will some of these climbers keep their routes secret anyway? Yes, for some of the reasons Alex listed. But some would not if the atmosphere on this site were different. The guys who've done the shit talking, and to some extent we moderators who allowed it, have made a decision whether we want to acknowledge it or not. We've decided that talking shit is more important than getting beta from people putting up new routes. To some, that is a good thing; to others, not.

No, we did not. And we wasted some time as a result. Onmce you get started, you will probably do OK without a topo up to the top of pith 12, a full-length pitch with perhaps 4-6 bolts in it. However, from here you mave to move right to a bush (120 feet, no bolts), and then start upward again. A topo would help, but is probably not needed if you have this beta. Copy your friend's copy of R&I and you will do fine.

Just be careful with a totally wet sleeping bag, though. I've ripped the baffles by washing a sleeping bag and then tossing it into the drier with a tennis shoe. (The tennis ball might be a better call, you might not want to use maximum high heat, either.)

Is the beer really cheap? Last time I was there it seemed like the beer was the only thing that cost the same as it does here at home. (That half-strength, extra-sweet Mekong whiskey was cheap, though.)

I have never used a bivvy bag inside a snow cave and I'm not used to having my sleeping bag get all wet that way. I'm guessing you were camped at low elevation where the snopack was unfrozen and water may even have been percolating through the snow so the whole place was 110% moisture? (That wouldn't have had to have been all that low this weekend, I suppose). It'll dry OK if you dry it by any method and then give it a good shake, though. Just don't leave it clumped up or in a pile in the corner or something.

A 110 foot tall fir is no joke. I've recently taken a bunch of small trees out of my backyard and I had a couple of them do thing's I didn't expect when they came down. I think the Daily Zip said that one of the "crew" WAS a man who works in the "tree cutting business" and even he apparently was taken by surprise. This just shows how maybe when I'm going to work my way up to something bigger I better hire Mr. K instead of taking a chance by doing it myself.

I'm not quite sure who "wants it both ways," but I DO think that overly focussing on route gradation has its downfalls - among them the fact that people who feel they need to climb the high numbers in order to think they accomplished anything on a given outing may overlook outstanding routes that are a few notches below their given grade. In addition, too much focus on grading can be limiting in the sense that we expect to fail on a climb rated even slightly over what we perceive to be our "limit" and this can be a bar to technical progress or the enjoyment of routes that are in fact within our grasp. I am sure there are some climbers who could climb "light on the path" if they were told it was 5.9, but will fail on it if it is called 5.10.

Daily Olympian web page

I'm with Scott here. I've never felt the need, while travelling abroad, to pretend I'm not an American. I've had plenty of experiences with people telling me how much they dislike what America stands for, but almost never have I had anyone mistreat me because I am American. Furthermore, unless you are a complete asshole, it is good for America if we travel and meet people around the world and have them see that we Americans are just people too -- isn't it?

I've been up there in the middle of the winter twice. The first time, we found steep snow to within 100 - 150 feet of the summit ridge, just SW of the summit, and we climbed both up and down with no real difficulty; two tools came in handy for the final bit but probably would not have been necessary. The second time, it was sunny and stuff was falling down all over the place so we strapped on our skis and left. On that occasion, the snow didn't pile so high and it would have been at least a couple of pitches of rime-ice coated rocks to reach the summit.

What's wrong with Andy's?

The climb is on the West Peak, not the Main Peak, so I think the hike starts over a mile before where Mr. Klenke has indicated - basically right at the lower left-hand corner of the "scale" that he imprinted on top of the map.

In the past, Bridwell has been featured in a profile-type article in the major climbing magazines quite a bit, and I would guess more than Donini. However, I've pretty much stopped reading them, so I don't know about the last few years.

Airport security is mostly a big scam intended to convince Americans that our government is doing something to protect us. Before boarding flights, we had to go through metal detectors before 9-11, so what is the big difference if they move them so that you can't accompany your wife or children partway down the concourse? After one oddball tried to blow up his shoes, you can't get on an airplane without taking your shoes off. They screen your carry on (they used to only screen some of them), and they detained my six year old nephew and scared the heck out of him when they searched his pack full of coloring books and juice while getting ready to board a recent flight, but nobody looked in my carry-on and I had a camera and other items that could easily have been full or c-4 or which might have included parts that break down into a knife or something. Out on the drive in front of the airport, you can't stop outside the baggage claim to wait for somebody -- what's the point of that if somebody with a truck bomb could just park and walk away from it (they could surely push the remote trigger before the bomb squad was called to haul it off), or if they are willing to blow themselves up? And then, during the recent orange alert, they made you drive past a little guard house on the entrance drive, backing up traffic all the way to the Burien freeway, so somebody could look into your car to see if you were "suspicious?" What the hell did THAT accomplish? Yes, I'm sure they have tightened up some aspects of airport security but most of this is just a show. We're paying a lot of money toward Mr. Bush's reelection campaign.

I find some of the Balance Bars slightly more moist or easier to "choke down" than those you listed -- but only slightly.

Ken- When you suggest descending the Winthrop to reach the Emmons, are you envisioning that they would descend after reaching Liberty Cap without climbing to Columbia Crest? I have always felt that Liberty Cap was the "climber's summit" as most of the more technical routes on the mountain terminate there, and I consider an ascent of Liberty Ridge complete if one does not go to Columbia Crest, but I bet there are many people out there who feel it is only complete if you actually go to the very summit of the mountain.

OK - so maybe the Sierra Club isn't all bad. How about the Natural Resources Defense Council, or the Audubon Society? I don't believe they are actively trying to keep you from going climbing either, are they? Yes, I am sure they have come down in support of a road closure at some point, but these groups recognize that a large portion of their constituency are parents who want to take thier kids outdoors, or people who just like to go to the mountains themselves - and I don't think they are "extremists" on access issues. If I am right, I've just named what are probably the three most recognizable names in environmental organizations. You acknowledge that your problem lies with "extreme environmentalists," not mainstream ones, but even here I fear that your wartime rhetoric shows how maybe you've gotten a little too into the fight (you don't care about collateral damage?). Again, I will point out that the things you seem most worried about (like road closures) are most often management decisions made by the Forest Service or BLM or somebody for reasons that most often have little or nothing to do with environmental concerns. I believe that in the North Cascades, it was the rangers who started eliminating summit registers. Throughout the American West for at least the last 30 years, the Forest Service has been actively engaged in a program to burn down public shelters with, as far as I can tell, little regard for whether environmentalists want them to do so or not. Yes, the Wilderness Society may have filed lawsuits to close existing access — that is the only real tool they have to promote their agenda. Where appropriate, we as climbers should be filing our own lawsuits or intervening as an opposing party, to preserve our access.

Roark - I agree with you if you are suggesting that Congress is not doing its job.

If you are asking about what I call "Upper Three O'Clock Rock," up and left from the main part of the rock, I don't think anybody has put routes on it. It is south or southeast facing, and steeper than the main part of Three O'Clock Rock.

Here's Chris Greyell on The Troll, 5.10a on the Third Tooth of The Comb (second tooth from the right in AlpinFox's picture).

Roark, you are right of course that other presidents have done bad things. However, you seem not to know what is happening with regard national security. I could be slighly mistaken, but I believe (1) the Clinton admin handed Bush a plan for a Homeland Security effort that was similar to what Ridge is doing and the Bush people tanked it; (2) the Clinton admin also had a plan in the works to take out Bin Laden, and the Bush people tanked that; and (3) the Patriot Act was not written by Congress -- it was drafted in the White House, and rubber stamped by Congress.

I worked up there for six or eight years, and I don't believe there was ever any problem crossing the lake between December and April.

Depending on what you are looking for, the Sulphide may in fact be a much better choice. If it is only two to three extra miles to the trailhead, this will be on a logging road and will take you 45 minutes. Overall, the Sulphide is both safer and easier, so much so that this makes up for the longer distance and I bet it won't actually take you longer to climb that way. The approach to the north side routes can be quite difficult for how short it actually is, due to brush and massive piles of avalanche debris that tower as much as a hundred feet high, and the noth facing snow is almost always going to be deeper and more difficult to beat a trail through. When you get to the moutnain the upper half of the White Salmon Glacier is actually fairly steep - too steep for an intermediate level skier - and also frequently covered with avalanche debris. It can be a great ski run, and if you are looking for powder that is where I wuld go, but I believe that most parties who climb via any of the north side routes in the winter do not summit, whereas I bet most parties who opt for the Sulphide do.

When adding and subtracting. Much better. But you gotta know how...

Many years ago, I made a couple of winter traversses in the Presidential Range (of New Hampshire). For mostly low-angled but icy terrain, instep crampons were just fine - and worked well in conjuction with a soft-soled pac-boot that was very good for snowshoeing below timberline. We used to lace them up so that the straps not only crossed over the top of our foot, as in Dru's drawing, but also behind the ankle. One loop went from the back posts of the instep crampons, up over the heel bulge, all-the-way around the ankle, and then back to the other heel post. This, in combination with the straps over the top of the foot, seemed to hold them more securely in place. We used 1/2" webbing for straps and cut it extra long. When you are truly just walking, as I would imagine to be the case on the Mt. Si trail (I have never done it), I would think instep crampons might well be superior to full on ten pointers.