mattp

Valid point, Goatboy -- the "gun barrels" are a serious hazard. However, I don't recall thinking we spent an inordinate amount of time in harm's way, and I thought the route was challenging, beautiful, and highly rewarding. The success rate is low, I think, because it is a big climb on a big mountain -- and because the weather sucks down there. The Silverhorn is a safer climb in some ways, but a party had a major epic on it when I was there and the place should not be underestimated. Here is one of the technical pitches on the Linda Glacier route: Above this, there is several hundred or a thousand feet of climbing that is steep and exposed, just short of what most of us would call technical ice climbing. I ended up lowering my partner down the entire thing rather than simulclimbing and trusting that he wasn't going to take us both for the big ride. Although he was a cocky guy and not the type to want to be babysat, he thanked me for being careful up there! Indeed, the Linda Glacier route is no "mere slog" in my book.

Its just another game to play, Josh. Some people want to climb the highest 100, others want to solo climbs that others use a rope on, and others want to tick all the routes in Jim Nelson's book or ski all twelve months of the year. It is all pretty much a game -- consider the completely arbitary rule that it is OK to clip a piece of gear for pro but you didn't really climb the pitch if you use it to hold body weight. There is nothing absolute or right about that principal - it is just how we all play the game. Whatever your game may be, that is OK by me.

I recall they have a storm on average once every three days. If you want to maximize your chances, allow plenty of extra time. I got lucky and did two climbs in a week, but some of the locals were mad because they, though strong climbers, hadn't been successful on two major climbs in several years' worth of vacations.

I climbed it with a partner who had never been on a rope before. Yes, it would be possible. The Linda Glacier route is non-technical or minimally technical except for just a couple of pitches. You and he will know you've climbed something, though -- especially if you climb from the bottom (many parties fly to the Plateau Hut). All in all, it is about like climbing a moderately challenging North Cascade alpine climb with the Ptarmigan Ridge on top of it. I believe it is 6,000 feet from the Plateau Hut to the summit.

All lies.

Uhhh .... Crackbolter: This is a climbing website. We talk about climbing here. That includes both new routes and repeats -- some folks like to get psyched up for either one. What's your point? Are you suggesting that there should not be any discussion of lines that may not have been climbed yet?

You ever been skiing up around Pemberton?

Wouldn't it actually make Jon and Timmy NATO commanders?

If the Carbon River road is not open, I would think you would be approaching from the West Side road or possibly Champion logging company roads right outside the park rather than the White River Road. In May the White River Road will almost certainly not be open anyway but even if it is, I think it would probably be much easier to walk in from the West Side Road. Also, if you are hoping not to descend the climbing route, the Tahoma Glacier descent would be just about as easy as descending the Emmons back toward the White River. In addition to the possible avalanche and weather concerns already noted, rockfall can be a serious hazard on that route and although much of the source areas will be covered in snow that time of the year, I'd be worried about the "weather" even if it was clear if you found you had a significant warming trend when you planned to be there.

Bronco - do you really believe that anything the Bush Administration has promoted has had anything to do with compromise? Only liberal wimps compromise and that is certainly not how they do things back home in the great state of Texas.

Indeed, Dru, you are brilliant to point out that those New Zealand ethics are specific to a different country with different access issues and different social norms. I disagree with your idea that bad behavior at crags or disgusting route names do not have any potential to contribute to having climbing restricted or shut down, though. At Vantage, the climbing area shares a parking lot with a hike that is in a guidebook to fifty popular hikes for children or something like that. I once arrived there to see a large poster on the bulletin board announcing a bunch of new climbs with route names like "smells like teen pussy," "menstruating whale snatch," and "too loose to come." Do you think those people who are taking their kids out for a nature hike want them to see that poster - or want them to hear some frustrated climber yell "this fucking route sucks?" Might they complain to the ranger about such a thing? Might the ranger take a dim view of it, too? You may think those route names are clever, and I'm not saying that they will be sufficient to get Vantage closed to climbing -- but things like that do not help our cause.

For an example of how it is that I think "codes of conduct" would address a broader ranger of issues, consider this -- from the New Zealand Alpine Club website: Code of Conduct for Rockclimbers Permission Before entering other peoples' land permission must be obtained. Any agreements made must be strictly followed. Accept that sometimes you may be refused permission to enter the land because of current circumstances, eg. family gathering, lambing/calving. Impact Any rockclimbing must have the lowest possible impact on the crag and environs. Points to note are: No climbing on special areas such as burial grounds, artefact sites, stalagmites and stalactites, areas of rare wildlife or other such identified areas Rockclimbers should limit their activities at a crag to the cliff, its top and its base, preserving areas such as native bush and reserves for all. Keep tracks to a minimum A crag is a small area and should not be used as a toilet All rubbish should be taken from the crag, including biodegradables Route Preparation This should be done to ensure minimum impact while ensuring the route is safe to climb. Talk to the landowners before cutting or removing vegetation. It is important that the route be prepared properly so the job does not have to be done twice. All ropes, slings etc. used in cleaning must be taken when leaving the crag, as these are often unsightly. Fixed Gear and Anchors In some areas climbs may have to be equipped with bolts or pegs. It is stressed that this gear is placed only for safety reasons. Where possible use the same belay point for several routes. At bolt station belays, the double bolt and chain set-up is the minimum standard. Bolts, where necessary, should be placed using the following as a guide: Make every bolt safe to use Use the best or most appropriate type for the rock Use care when considering bolt placements - note the distance between bolts, and ease of clipping. Naming Routes The prerogative of the first ascentionist. Care should be taken not to offend others with the selected name. It is not worth incurring the wrath of the local iwi, ranger, farmer or landowner for the sake of a crude or derogatory route name. This can cause a crag to be closed. Behaviour Remember that your voice carries some distance from the cliff, sometimes far enough to be heard by landowners and other land users who may be upset by obscenities and offensive phrases uttered in the heat of the moment on a climb. Before stripping off for a swim, consider if nudity might be offensive to landowners. It sometimes is! On a farm: Leave gates as you find them (open or shut) Cross fences at stiles preferably or at strainer posts, and cross locked gates at the hinged end Leave your dog and gun at home Do not distress or molest the stoc Before driving across farmland you must check with the farmer. Cultural Considerations Where crags have special cultural significance, cultural sensitivities and any issues arising must be resolved before climbing commences. In particular, aspects such as burial grounds and tapu on Maori land must be addressed. Relevant specialists may need to survey the crag. Communications Maintain good communications. A few minutes of polite discussion can mean an uninterrupted day's climbing, whereas a few hurled insults can result in no further access for climbers ever. Be courteous and respectful. Camping Camp only in designated areas and keep a tidy camp. Completely extinguish any campfire after use. Safety Inherent in climbing is an element of risk. Some flaunt it, others respect it, some choose to ignore it. In the final analysis you are responsible for your own safety. Nobody has to do a particular route. If a route is too necky for you, back off. Climb as safely as possible. Beware of loose rocks; they cause considerable damage to people and equipment when dislodged. Some crags are notorious for having loose rocks on the routes and on access/descent tracks. Wearing a helmet could save you from serious injury. All things being equal, softer rock is more likely to have protection fail; keep this in mind when placing wires at some of the softer rock crags. Treat all fixed gear with suspicion - you do not know its history. Access to crags is a privilege not a right! This information may be copied for redistribution on the condition that it is reproduced in full and no items or objects represented on this leaflet are omitted. Page from NZ Alpine Club site.

Well now there you may have a point, CJF. Except I remember once when I "debated" the issue with my friends we all agreed OK. Actually, I believe we have at times been able to have a nearly reasonable discussion of some parts of the issue even here on cc.com, but as a general rule I think you are correct that certain "ethical" issues related to climbing are very emotional and lead to combative rhetorical confrontation rather than more civil discussion. Are climbers different in this respect than, say, surfers or soccer players? I'm not sure.

I'd say that would be a poor place to start, Sobo. One might get the impression from that thread or others like it that bolting is the only issue or the most important issue when it comes to "codes of conduct" and access issues for climbers in Washington. They might also get the idea that climbers cannot discuss challenging issues without resorting to childish name calling.

No fair, Catbird. He cited his source apparently without bothering to read it first, and you weren't supposed to either.

Go Fern, go. Start with Catbird. He said something mean about me once, I think.

It'd be a long hike from the Mountainhome Road to Cannon Mountain - though Wedge Mountain stands right above the Mountainhome road and the outlying North Peak of Cannon Mountain stands right above the Eightmile Road and can be reaced from the road extension beyond the summer trailhead for Mountaineer Creek.

Lichtenwasser Lake, on Lichtenburg Mountain above the Smith Brook road just a few miles down the east side of Stevens Pass is pretty nice, and a summit climb is an option if the avalanche hazard isn't too great. Down closer to Leavenworth the trailheads are all pretty low so most of the time I'd look for a destination closer up to the pass.

mommy

Some people are truly insulted or upset when ridiculed here. Even some of the self proclaimed badass irreverent sprayers get pretty worked up over what takes place on cc.com -- some even complain about what somebody said about them at pubclub or carry a grudge that lasts for several months or longer over something said on this bulletin board. You may laugh it off or say it is OK - but it is pure BS to say that nobody should be offended by anything that appears on this site.

What are you talking about, Will? We're all a buch of badasses who don't fear being flamed, because "climbing is a game where the cost of total failure is death?" Get a grip. "Most climbers I know can (and when the situation calls for it are) as respectful and upstanding as the next guy?" I would like to think so, but I don't see this on cc.com. "If you can't deal with something as silly as the tone of some words written in cyberspace, what the fuck are you gonna do when the storm breaks and you're on day 3 of no food, your partner has just passed out, and it's a 25 mile cross country trek to the nearest help?" Look around, Will -- we're on a chat room here. I have never been on day three with no food and a 25 mile hike to the nearest help with you -- and probably never will be -- but I have shared the computer screen with you many times. I agree sort of with your message -- but get over yourself, huh?

You you-know-what's. I was hesitant to post anything about Sloan at all last year, because it was the W. Face I was actually interested in and I feared attention may not be a good thing for my selfish ambitions. But I posted a trip report anyway, and PF went up there and he didn't know any better. Now the one and only cool climb left in the State is public knowledge (not really, but I hope you'll at least have the decency to invite me along when you go up there to try and snag it -- and I hope that isn't before about February when it may actually come into shape).

I left this threadin the route reports forum for a few days because we were at least having some discussion about what might be valid in that forum, but it is really just a bunch of spray (Edit: though meanwhile, TTT removed some of the more recent sprayful posts, so you guys will never see those last two gems that put it over the top for me).

Damn if I don't agree with Cracked. I understand him to be saying that this is a legitimate forum to ask about non-standard objectives, and for people to discuss even foolish plans or longshot attempts, without having somebody who doesn't know them or their abilities to "call them (idiotic) on it."