mattp

Stach, My impression is that many if not most of the roads were at least largely paid for with tax money and the logging companies paid stumpage for the timber. The massive logging operations that led to building all of these road were hugely subsidized with public dollars.

Check out the gear forum thread on the same topic.

Owenel, I googled the Redwing pack and it looks like it is what used to be called a "back loader." I think most climbers prefer what are known as "top loading" packs, all other things being equal. The difference is that the back loaders are opened by lying them on the ground and unzipping a zipper that is like a suit-case zipper. This is very convenient when packing and allows quick access to the entire pack but top loaders offer more flexibility when it comes to varying load sizes. The top loaders have no zipper around the back but are built more or less like a grocery bag, opening at the top, with a draw string around the top edge. They often come with extension collars and extendable top flaps that support overloading much more readily. Also, the top loaders almost always come with constriction straps that render the pack more load-friendly when you dump most of the stuff out at a camp and then carry a smaller load to a summit. They are not as user friendly when packing and unpacking but the advantages of top-loaders generally outweigh the disadvantages - for mountaineering. If you are going to use the pack for travel, no. Over the years there have been some excellent back-loaders, though. (I first posted this on the Climbers Board, but moved it here, where it belongs.)

Adams is great. There are lots of good routes on it. Do the research but go ahead and ask questions. A lot of posters around here have good information for you.

That is David, during our initial exploration and development of the route.

Trip: Darringon - Three O'Clock Rock - Total Soul Date: 7/2/2011 Trip Report: I climbed Total Soul on 3:00 Rock yesterday and the route was as fun as ever. An eight pitch slab climb, the route has quite a bit of variety to it with some fingerlocks and liebacks thrown into the mix along with the traditional Darrington knob trotting and paste-and-prey slab climbing. The "Rappel" signage at the top of the route is missing: if you do this climb, top out and take your shoes off for a bit but then begin the rappels from a tree about 50 feet north of the top of the climb. A single rope rappel leads to a chain on the rock to the right, opposite where there is a sling on a tree. 7 double rope rappels lead to the ground. The route was set with 50 meter ropes so if you are old fashioned that way it will work out just fine. On the way up the trail in the morning we talked with a guy who'd put up what looks like a spectacular route on the Comb and who had replaced anchors on Dreamer. If you read this report I'd like to talk to you and maybe add some info to my website or just go climbing some time. Darrington Rock Climbing Gear Notes: For Total Soul, take a medium sized rack to 3" with some smallish wires, gizmo's to 3" and any doubling up in the 1/2 to 1" range. On pitch 4, save that red camelot for the last placement between two bolts at the end of the pitch. Approach Notes: The Forest Service surprised us and fixed the road sooner than we expected. The Clear Creek Road is good to go to the Eightmile trailhead and to the base of the Granite Sidewalk leading to Exfoliation Dome. Snowpatches linger at the base of Silent Running and Total Soul. Here is a topo that shows these two routes but not the 2 1/2 routes in between them. North Buttress of 3:00 Rock

The problem is, as I see it, that there just doesn't seem to be public support for public resources. Whether it is public land or public education or public transit or even public roads: tax revenues are down due to a poor economy but the "public" votes no for any measure that would restore funding. I hate user fees, and I've complained about them on this board, in letters to the newspaper, and in letters to the rangers. I'm pretty sure that fee for entry is a lot less efficient than funding public recreation through broader taxes that don't require on-site enforcement. Parking permit enforcement not only eats up much of the revenue the parking permits may generate, but it also produces bad-will toward the agencies that actually manage the lands we like to enjoy. I'm not at all convinced that parking passes will keep our parks open, but what else can they do?

Crills, that Index Lower Town Wall parking lot is railroad company property. The Washington Climbers Coalition has negotiated an agreement where we can use it for now and State Parks is helping maintain it while we look toward longer term parking. You can park for free and you'll be able to use the porta-potty that's presently planned for temporary installation at the Country without buying a Discovery Pass. State Parks owns the Upper Town Wall and the Country and they've been very supportive of climbing at Index, by the way.

Trip: Mazama - Rockfest Date: 6/26/2011 Trip Report: The AAC Rockfest was a good time this past weekend. My wife and I drove over to join the campfire on Friday night. On Saturday morning the hosts served an amazing breakfast and then we were off to Fun Rock for clinics and climbing. The burgers and slides on Saturday night were terrific. Diana said "I'm not a burger fan but these are good!" Another campfire followed. On Sunday morning we conducted a work party at Fun Rock, and this somewhat homely crag got a nice facelift. A lot of happy faces gathered for a group photo and then we went climbing. Up at Prospector Crag it got HOT. At one point I took my normally comfy all-day rockshoes off because my feet were swelling in the heat and I found the ground too hot to stand on barefoot. I put walking shoes back on in a hurry and we stayed long enough so that one member of our party could climb her first lead (see above photo) but then decided it was time to pack up and head down for a dip in the river. This was a very nice end to a good weekend: it has been cold in Seattle this Spring and not since August, ten months ago, have I been anywhere that it actually got hot! Gear Notes: 4" foam pad would have made camping even cushier! Approach Notes: Look on website. Find no directions. Type "address" into google maps and prey.

I moved it. Thanks for the route and the report, Martin!

I received this message today:

If you are going to ski uphill then peel the skins off - once in a day - tape on the tails will generally work OK unless it is icy and the tape wears so you will have to replace the tape. Even if it is not icy, and if you are skinning through the woods, up and down at all, or skiing repeated ski runs so that you are putting skins on and off three or four times in a day, you want what I used to call the Canadian top-fix system. Sew a strap on the back of the skin which wraps around the tail of the ski and then connects through a loop of elastic to a D-ring hung on a screw on the top of the ski. Even with failing glue, this system works (not with totally failed glue).

I'd say travel with luggage you can manage. If you can easily fit the technical gear in your luggage - bring it. If not - maybe not. Particularly if you are going to Cham, and not planning on going anywhere else for any other reason, bring as much as you can. But even still: the biggest cost of your trip lies in the airfare and other "logistics." The cost of ice tools is relatively little, even if you have to buy a pair of ice tools on a bulletin board or even brand new at a climbing shop. I have not been there for 20 years and don't know about the MSR canisters, and I'm sure somebody else here can give you good advice. But even if you have to buy a new stove it won't change your trip. And if you meet somebody who is ready to climb there is a big chance they will have that other stove that has canisters available on the street. I have met people in California, Nepal, and New Zealand for some of the biggest climbs in my climbing career. If you are ready to climb, you'll probably have a good trip.

I'd rather get ticks than be pestered by the obnoxious campground "hosts" and Larry the Tool! I think Larry's gone now but not the hosts.

For general use I like the Wild Country Heliums and Petzl Spirits. The Spirits are really tough and I have some I have carried for over ten years that still perform as well as the day I bought them. The Heliums clip really easily and I like the hookless nose and wire gate combination. Both of these, with a key-lock gate, do not get caught on slings or bolt hangers when you want to unclip and the wired stoppers slide right off them if you use one for a racking 'biner. I know there are lighter 'biners out there but I think they are all smaller and I have not become a fan of the miniature 'biners. The downside of the keylocks is they don't open a beer bottle as easily as a traditional 'biner but where there's a will there's a way, eh? Slings? Who cares. I get a better feeling looking at the fat ones and when you want to stand in one or grab it they are a little more comfy but I have no problem using the skinnier one some of my friends like to carry.

For long underwear or pants I like modern synthetic materials but for years we climbed in army surplus wool pants and they worked just fine. For a tee shirt I've always worn cotton. I like a buttoned short sleeve shirt as a tee shirt when I'm going to be hiking with a pack. I work hard not to overdress and overheat and, when it does get wet, I may dry it out by taking it off and wearing it over a sweater at a rest break or camp. I don't like the feel of synthetics, I like having a breast pocket for a map or food bar, and the cotton shirt tail works better to wipe my glasses.

Nice!

With a few dry days it could be Primo, Ivan. Judging by the puddle in the parking lot and the wetness in cracks we climbed I think it rained pretty hard a day or two before Saturday. However, it might have been dry the weekend before. Cross your fingers and come on up if the weather dries out. Buyer beware: it has been wet lately.

The waterfall was running fat on Saturday June 4. You would have needed flippers.

I would consider camping lower than the Lunch Counter. There is nice camping down at timberline and, especially if it is windy, you will be a lot more comfortable down there. I believe that by far most parties who climb the S. Route climb in a single day, and this includes climbers ages 10 to 80, in-shape and out. Although the "stats" are huge - what is it? 7,000 feet of gain? - I don't think you need to worry about the gain as much as the total experience. The Lunch Counter is often not a nice place to camp.

I was surprised by your questions about abrasions. Anybody who climbs cracks that are stretching their comfort or mastery zone sustains abrasions on a regular basis. These are not considered injuries and, as far as I know, have no negative health consequences. Do your survey designers know this?

You're not going to get the magic formula, Builder. If it has been raining for three weeks, you might want to wait a day or three. If it has been fairly dry, 5 minutes might be sufficient. I'm not kidding. I've climbed up there when there was intermittent rainfall and had dry rock. One thing that will help is if you are not afraid to climb wet rock if that turns out to be in the way of your objective. There is often a wet streak here or there that may be in your way even on an otherwise dry day. With current reports that there is a bunch of snow at the top of Exfo and Squire Creek Wall, I might avoid these destinations right now. If it were me, I'd head up there tomorrow, if that helps.

I don't understand. Well sort of. I've been one who complained about large groups when they were in MY way, or when they invaded an area that I felt some ownership over, or when I thought they were having undue impact somewhere. I've confronted the intruders directly, written letters to the rangers, or complained to my friends. But, really, but I think it is a question of context and I don't think that Royal Columns or The Tooth is a context where we really have much to complain about. Ingalls Peak maybe, but even there only, really, maybe. Here's my thinking: 1. Don't you expect large crowds if you head to The Tooth, or R and D in Leavenworth, or the West Ridge of Forbidden Peak in good weather? You should. 2. I don't think a WAC group of 12 on the Tooth is any worse than a bunch of parties, adding up to 12, who are not part of a program with leaders who (hopefully) know what they are doing and have some concern for how their program impacts others. At Tieton, or on The Tooth, it is not at all uncommon to find AT LEAST 12 other people in line in front of you. 3. Aren't all of us in somebody else's way at some point? I commend the Mountaineers for responding to public comment and reducing their group size if that is in fact what they have done, and I share the pain of anybody who was on The Tooth or Ingalls Peak when a large group showed up in front of them, but these are public resources we are talking about. I think clubs, guide outfits, and even just large groups of friends have just as much right to be there as parties of two. As I said: I have complained about large parties myself. It is disappointing-and then some-to hike in to a climb and find a bunch of people in your way, and in some environments or some contexts a single large group has more impact than several smaller ones. But Tieton in the Spring or the Tooth? What do you expect?

My points really are quite simple. I'll break it down for you: 1) It is a sad situation but I don't think it is realistic to expect REI or any other company to admit liability when they or their insurer do not have to. 2) Ours is not a perfect system but this is an example of how our legal system probably does work as a deterrent toward irresponsible corporate behavior and as a provider of compensation to the victim. You may not be interested in further elaboration but Jason was asking why I wrote what I wrote and I tried to offer a bit of my reasoning.

Apart from the adverserial system, there is another major question here. To those who say liability exposure is the problem here, I'd ask: what is the alternative? If you take the individual right to sue REI or if you cap liability awards as tort reformers would like to do, what incentive would there be for REI to insure that this doesn’t happen again? Would you rather have some kind of consumer safety board that would have the authority to close REI’s doors if they don’t clean up their act? Some other regulatory power? And what about Monika? Should public payor healthcare have been available to take care of her if she had no right to sue REI? Or, if she had no insurance, should she simply have been screwed? In many ways, our tort system (personal injury and other suits for injury) is the ultimate "free market" approach to safety and victim compensation.