mattp

OK. Now we're getting somewhere. The Queen, Knotzen, sunyata reply on this thread and I'm getting some private messages as well. It could be a good time....

Its still looking good" FRIDAY NIGHT...CLEAR. FREEZING LEVEL 15000 FEET. WIND IN THE PASSES LIGHT. SATURDAY...SUNNY. FREEZING LEVEL 15000 FEET. AFTERNOON PASS TEMPERATURES IN THE LOWER TO MID 70S. WIND IN THE PASSES LIGHT. SATURDAY NIGHT...MOSTLY CLEAR. FREEZING LEVEL 14000 FEET. SUNDAY...SUNNY. FREEZING LEVEL 13000 FEET. SUNDAY NIGHT...CLEAR. FREEZING LEVEL 12000 FEE Any more takers?

Forrest and Trog mention a problem with the hood of the mummy lying over your face if the bags don't have zippers on opposite sides and you zip them together. I have never found this to be a problem whatsoever. Tuck it under your chin, and put a hat on if your head gets cold, and you're all set.

Silent Running's original crux pitch:

The weekend forecast is looking pretty good for DTown: FRIDAY NIGHT THROUGH SATURDAY NIGHT...CLEAR. FREEZING LEVEL 14000 FEET. AFTERNOON PASS TEMPERATURES IN THE UPPER 60S TO MID 70S. SUNDAY AND SUNDAY NIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY. FREEZING LEVEL 13000 FEET. web page

This one, on the left, has more visible rock than the others.

The climbs at Darrington are mostly 4-10 pitches on low angled granite. It is definitely "subalpine" but the overall experience is more like alpine rock climbing than typical crag climbs. The area is remote and beautiful. It tends toward slab climbing but there is face climbing and the occasional crack as well, often with long runouts on easier sections of any given climb but well-protected at the crux's. Descents are via rappel, and two ropes are generally needed. 5.5 to 5.12. We waged a successful campaign to have the road reopened after it was temporarily closed this past Spring, and I think it'd be great for more people to get out there and explore this remarkable climbing area. My guess is that we can assemble a couple of interested climbers here.

For anything lager than a day pack, I've always preferred packs that provided some access to the bottom. I would find a pack without a side or middle height zipper to be a nuisance.

SnowByrd sent me a message asking if I might queery whether there was any interest in such a thing. In the past I know that lots of folks have had a good time taking their kids camping in Leavenworth and climbing easy roadside stuff as a group from cc.com. What do you say?

I'm thinking of climbing both days this coming weekend and making a campout of it Satuday. I've got a partner for Saturday, but there's lots to do and we can probably mix and match partners of several people show up. Who wants to go?

Your best bet is to stop for dinner or something and wait for the jam to fade out. As noted, if you drive past Index after 9:00 p.m. you rarely have a problem. Alternatively, you could cut the lcimbing day short and head home early, but how many of us are willing to do that?

At least there is some measure of predictability about it. In general, it seems to me these backups seem the worst if you are headed toward Seattle with an estimated arrival time between 6:00 and 9:00 pm or so. If you'd just take a little longer on your climb you might not get the car-to-car bragging rights, bt you'll probably have less trouble on the highway.

The yellowjackets always seem to be a problem in the late summer like this. Anybody know why?

Pope, I had asked Off White to ship RuMR's post that kicked off the "fuck you Pope" spray extension to Spray, and he did so. I was thanking him for trying to steer the thread back on track. Read back through the thread. A guy comes on here to ask about adding a bolt to Index Town Wall and virtually everyone who expresses an opinion on the question says no or "probably no." You bring up another route at Index and I point out that in part what we are talking about is preserving Index Lower Town Wall as primarily a trad/aid crag. I would think you'd support and encourage such discussion rather than try to make a mess out of it by trying to be provocative with the via ferratta and sit start nonsense and complaining about a moderator who deleted a post that said "fuck you pope." Yes, he described a negative reaction to your communication style - is THAT something we're not entitled to do? Read it again: with the exception of RUmR's argument that a bolt may be no more damaging than a pin scar, your "presevationist" stance is getting some support though there has been some objectio nto your moralistic dramatics.

With regard NumbahTen/Amandla, we are discussing a route that was developed in a heavily if not exclusively bolt-protected style (there are a few moves on gear, are there not?) on a crag that was by then so heavily developed that any new bolt or new climb could easily have been (still is) dismissed as a retrobolt or a squeeze job, while many climbers lauded it is a remarkable achievement and a postitive addition to the mix of climbs at Index (still do). Personally, I'd have little problem with it if this does not become the start of a wholescale redevelopment and change in the character of the place (I realize NumbahTen/Amandla has been in place for over ten years and there has been an increase in bolting at Lower Town Wall but I believe it has been fairly gradual and generally undertaken after careful consideration). Most of the crack climbs and the aid training climbs at Lower Town Wall still offer outstanding climbing experiences and I think the cliff looks pretty good overall – better than it did 20 years ago. But where are we in terms of the overall development? Many of the questions I raised above apply to this one, but I think it raises another significant question: -Should we preserve Lower Town Wall as a “trad” and “aid” crag where bolts are minimized?

Thanks for that, Off. Maybe with a bit of care we can have a bolting discussion that actually goes somewhere. In this thread, we actually had some discussion of a proposed bolt. It didn't go real far, but there it was. I can't climb Iron Horse and I'm not sure I've ever even rapped that line to look at it. I generally agree with the idea that we should be very shy about retrobolting established lines, but the idea that "it will be more an accomplishment" for someone if they can climb the route without that bolt is not the end of the story -- at least for me. -How unique is the route? -Who will/has climbed it with or without the bolt? -Would the addition of this bolt signify or promote a change in route development/maintenance practices at Index? -How dangerous is the move without the bolt? -How will the addition of this bolt affect other climbs nearby visually and through (presumably) drawing more traffic to this climb? -How visually prominent will the bolt be? -What are prevailing attitudes? -Will somebody be pissed off if we add the bolt? -How can we justify retrobolting in this case? -At a gut level, do we think it is right or wrong to add that bolt? There seem to be a lot of 5.12 climbs at Index and my inclination would be to say thumbs down to the bolt but I’d be interested to hear from climbers who actually know the route in question. Also, I think the overall questions are: -Is Lower Town wall “saturated” so that no more bolts or routes should be added? -If not, when might we think it is? -Who decides and how?

Clampooner is right that you probably are not going to want to climb Exfoliation Dome in the morning and plan on going to Three O'Clock Rock in the afternoon. The climbs on Exfoliation Dome are a lot like a small mountain climb, with an approach and descent that are not trivial and the peak itself makes a worthy objective. If you go to the summit of Exfoliation Dome, the West Slabs descent is relatively straight-forward but never-the-less it involves about ten rappels and opportunities to get confused or get a rope stuck. And then you have to scramble back down the approach. The Comb Buttress or Three O'Clock Rock or Baloney Dome offer more of a cragging experience.

The "North Buttress" at Three O'Clock Rock faces NE. It gets morning sun, and indeed it CAN fry on a hot day. On an only moderately warm day, it is not too bad. It goes into shade about 3:00 pm. Even on the hottest days, you can find nice cool and generally shaded climbs if you start early -- but Three O'Clock Rock is not where you'll want to look. The west-facing routes on Exfoliation Dome are shaded or partly shaded in the morning.

Once again, you recycle a worn out joke Mr. Pope. Nobody is talking about developing Index in the style that you portray and I am fairly sure that even the pure among us would generally agree that there is no comparison between the climbing at Index and a via ferratta. Under what circmustances might it be acceptable to add a bolt to a climb that somebody has previously completed without it?

I think you should be careful if you are suggesting that “the guy who placed the bolt by definition couldn’t climb the route without it.” That may be so in this instance, but I don’t see that anybody is actually saying they know that is true here. I'm not much familiar with the history of route development or redevelopment at Index but, with one or two exceptions, virtually every case of retrobolting that I know about was undertaken by someone who actually could and did lead the route without the added bolt or bolts before they added them. I don’t know about the bolts on Numbah Ten, and I’m not arguing that they should stay or go. I agree with Pope’s statements elsewhere that every bolt placement should be given careful thought and I would hope anybody who would undertake to bring about any change in the bolting at Index asks a lot of questions before they do so. Would your friend, Mr. Walling, assert that there should never be a case where a bolt is added to a line that can be done by somebody without it? What other factors might play into the discussion?

I may be able to skip out of work a little early. North Bend or Index?

Does Foie Gras come in a can? If not, it'd be kind of like carrying your smoked oysters or sardines in a plastic bag.

Unique for sure. I climbed the first six pitches as a crag climb with one of the newlyweds yesterday, and I gotta say it was scary as hell but fun. It is not badly run out (those first six pitches, anyway), but it sure feels that way when you are standing on and pinching pebbles, some of which are slick little things and others which just make you worry that they're going to blow any minute. In actuality, it all seems to hold together OK, but we found it unnerving. Those six pitches contained an excellent variety of crack and face climbing up to 5.9 / .10a, with a moderate amount of bush involved on the approach and a treeclimb on the last pitch.

Of course, we're straying far and wide from the original inquiry but I'd say that Castle Rock in Leavenworth is probably not much more than 2 1/2 hours from downtown Seattle and offers excellent moderate climbing which is largely in the shade early in the morning.

Total Soul goes into shade about 3:00 pm. If it is in the 90's in Seattle, it will be unbearably hot by 11:00 am and it would be better to wait until mid-afternoon to start. That won't help Matt A, though, with the 4:00 return-time. For shade climbs, the west facing stuff on Blueberry Hill is shady in the morning and in fact the approach up the Granite Sidewalk doesn't take any longer than the hike up to Total Soul or that up to OnLine. The "Granite Sidewal" is anything but the casual stroll that Smoot desribes, though, and it is probably not a good choice for someone who has never done any multipitch climbs before and presumably has little scrambling experience. Those Blueberry Hill climbs are not as easy to descend as the other choices being discussed here, either, so come to think of it just forget about them entirely. OnLine is six pitches (isn't it?) and Total Soul is eight. My guess is that Total Soul would for most parties not be a significantly longer round trip from Seattle, and of course you can rap from anywhere on the route so all you need to do is take a watch and turn around at the appropriate time.