pope

Wow, how'd your arrive at that figure? You are truly a nerd. BTW, the total land area of the U.S. is only 1.4*10^16 in^2....and in case you haven't traveled much, most of that ain't "exposed rock surface for recreational purposes". Not only are your computations a few factors of ten off, I'm sure the real issue has something more to do with what kind of activities and impacts are acceptable on public land. I mean really, what fraction of our national park lands would be impacted by me if I were to ride a motocross bike around the Wonderland Trail? Must be infinitessimally small...but I doubt we'll see the day when Ranger Rick buys into the logic of your calculations.

Where'd you go to clown school? I'm thinking somebody owes you a refund. It's amusing when you suggest that we should keep you informed of our efforts, just as those who in this thread have suggested that we should "join the community" and help to form a consensus (otherwise we're just thugs, like Ken Nichols). I probably don't need to remind you of the way the WCC handled their "public" meetings with land managers over the Infinite Bliss crisis. But just in case you forgot (we didn't), meetings were announced a few hours before or even after the fact....so that Matty P. and company could be sure the opposition didn't have a chance to barge in and expose the fantasy of a "unified and harmonious climbing community". Our operations will be similarly "public". But thanks for the challenge. The possibility for some small success mandates an honest effort on my part.

The more I think about this issue, the more I begin to think that we need a new approach. Instead of trying to change the minds of so many sport climbers, we should educate leaders of environmental groups about the impacts of sport climbing and encourage them to lobby for laws banning bolts. Today's climbers have a lot more in common with ORV groups than bird watchers. Here's to rasing awareness.

When I say “public eye” I mean he has a public record of his activities. Public….as in anyone has access this information. General public…..what does that mean? You mean folks who watch Fox News? Or do you mean the climbing community? If it’s the latter….I would say you and I know about it….and Bill posted this on a climbers web site……Rock & Ice is a climbers web site. Hmmmmm…..maybe more people are interested than you lead us to believe…..and maybe not….. The vandalism comes when one comes and destroys others work. And yes one could argue your above point……but IMO….that is very weak argument. It is not conceited at all…..I think (and you have heard this from me before) that chopping bolts is conceited. My way or no way style of thinking is all about ego. I see routes, bolted or all gear, as art work. Someone took time to clean, scrub, maybe put an anchor in, trundle, top rope, clean some more, bolt if necessary, then lead and name…..art work bro…… sickie A trail of bolts might be called crude engineering, but it ain't art. Occasionally, a natural weakness in a vertical wall may provide an adventure to a team that is willing accept an uncertain result by climbing UP into the unknown, perhaps placing an occasional bolt where their lives depend on it. Some incredibly challenging and bold climbs were established this way. But let's stop with the nonsense already. Most bolt climbs today represent a cowardly approach to rock climbing, where nearly all risk and uncertainty are removed from the equation. The results are often pathetic, imposing on the landscape grids of alien hardware that eliminate adventue for the mobs of "climbers" who probably wouldn't have anything to do with the sport if they couldn't chase bolts and deceive themselves into thinking they're really climbing 5.12. You call this art? I call it convenience. I call it a rejection of retraint and aesthetics in the pursuit of something that is closer to beach volleyball than rock climbing the way I learned it.

You're terribly confused. The fact is, different human pursuits operate under different rules. Until you can successfully demonstrate how rock climbing ethics are even remotely related to the science of studying ancient cultures by excavating remains of their civilization, you're invited politely to admit that you're talking out your ass. As Dwayner points out, there exist ethical considerations in both pursuits, but they're completely unrelated. I don't detect "occupational elitism" in Dwayner's response, but perhaps a degree of antiintellectual resentment in your own. Too bad your emotions stand in the way of appreciating Dwayner's generosity in sharing news of discovery and exploration from the cutting edge of science.

Hey de Crisco: What don't you understand? The guy doesn't want to debate his profession on the cc.com. Did you watch the show? You could have seen the intersection of archaeology and climbing. He'll debate bolts with you all night long but if you want to debate archaeology, find him on some other more appropriate forum. (and by the way, you won't stand a chance because I bet you don't have a clue...and they probably won't tolerate your behavior.) By the way, what do YOU do for a living? I see you list in your profile that your web-site is the Mountain Fund. Is that so? Do you manage or work for the Mountain Fund? Is that where I shouldn't send my money? 'nuff said. Now go get your shine box.

pitifully pompous (although, an ostrich would be appropriate) Hey Wisenheimer...the guy shared some special and interesting things about his work that involved some climbing and he doesn't want to discuss unrelated archaeological ethics on a site known for pissing on everything and everybody. You've probably noticed that he's not shy about discussing climbing issues on this here climbing board, now is he. Ostrich? How about trying this little extraction maneuver yourself:

That's something an ole gramma would say and it doesn't mean a dang thing. Are you an old gramma? He's got no point. Raindawg's sharing something special so enjoy it. Ferrata-Boy says: "hey you, that's right, you with the crappy attitude....SIT DOWN!"

Hey kids, if you still have a VCR, the video series referenced above is available trough both the Pierce and King County library systems. Narrated by Sir Christopher Frayling, the series is informative and entertaining, not the kind of documentary that will induce sleep. And you get to see Dwayner in action in the Valley of the Kings.

If you're fond of Jack N. Hoff, you should try sport climbing.

Chew on this:

South Arete of S. Early Winter Spire. Easy, outstanding climbing. Should be cooler up at the pass.

Every time somebody places a bolt, he is making that statement. Every time Kevbone argues against chopping a bolt, Kevbone is making that statement.

Hey, that looks like the Old Buckley Highway! BTW, anybody who has a poster of Big Lou sporting a can of that piss, I'll pay top dollar. It belongs in my garage.

Yowsa!

Elvis just left the building.

Hey, he looks like the UPS delivery guy!

Some marginal players beat out Zappa, John McLaughlin and Dickey Betts. Eddie Van Halen places near the bottom of the list? Then you have folks that don't even belong: Joni Mitchell, Lou Reed and some nobody from Black Flag. I guess you qualify if you know three chords. Conspicuously absent is Johnny Thunders. A small number of the musicians listed can play something other than pop music.

Thanks a lot, pal. Now I want to quit my job and go climbing for a year. Great TR...you two get it done! Enjoyed the photography. A cyber-brew to you!

If you're belayed by anybody who owns a Gri-Gri, climbs ice "leashless" or calls "Take!" when they wish for tension, you are not reasonably cautious. If you climb with anybody who DOES own a hemp chalk bag but DOES NOT own a 5-inch cam, you are not reasonably cautious. If you climb with anybody who dials 911 from the top of Glacier Peak instead of dialing Big Lou, you are not reasonably cautious.

Bold = hard move, bad gear, angry weather, climb through. Reckless = hard move, bad gear, angry weather, break leg or worse. Bold = exploits in mountaineering periodical. Reckless = rescue in newspaper. Hindsight is 20/20.

You can’t say shit about a movie you have not seen; you have no foundation to dis the movie just upon what others tell you about it. What make this different? Or how about sweaty man-love? How do you know, Kevbone, until you've tried it? Or maybe you have.

"Those were the days!" I gave up that kind of foolishness when (don't laugh) my mother found out what I'd been up to....it made her cry. That and a couple close calls and I realized life could be satisfying without going to the point where only a smear and a finger jam existed between a gratifying experience and closing the final chapter of my story.