chucK

I don't see your point. Do you have some logic that will impugn sympathizers of the Iraqi people today on the basis of how people would have felt 60 years ago about a bombing raid that killed 80K+ civillians? If so let's hear it.

Hmmm... I didn't even consider the possibility that the girl blogger was complete and utter propaganda! I guess that could be the case. The thing that struck me so much about her stories is not so much the anti-US stuff, but the picture that it paints of how horrible it must be to be living in Iraq (Bagdad at least) right now. That sentiment is definitely echoed in a few of JayB's linked blogs too, though the blame for the nightmarish situation is placed elsewhere. Thanks for providing those "alternate" links JayB .

"I don’t offer solutions because I didn’t start this war. Like millions of other Americans, I actively opposed Bush’s War. Partisan conservatives demonized us as “unpatriotic” and “peaceniks” and "hippies" without ever listening to our message. It’s helpful to remember that every bad thing the anti-Bush War people predicted has happened, while everything the neo-conservatives promised has failed to materialize. I didn’t shit the bed so I have no obligation to clean it up or sleep in it." link

"Wednesday, November 10, 2004 "Rule of Iraq Assassins Must End... I'm not feeling well- it's a combination of the change of weather and the decline in the situation. Eid is less than a week away but no one is feeling at all festive. We're all worried about the situation in Falloojeh and surrounding regions. We've ceased worrying about the explosions in Baghdad and are now concerned with the people who have left their homes and valuables and are living off of the charity of others. Allawi declared a "State of Emergency" a couple of days ago... A state of emergency *now* - because previous to this week, we Iraqis were living in an American made Utopia, as the world is well aware. So what does an "Emergency State" signify for Iraqis? Basically, it means we are now *officially* more prone to being detained, raided, and just generally abused by our new Iraqi forces and American ones. Today they declared a curfew on Baghdad after 10 p.m. but it hasn't really made an impact because people have stopped leaving their houses after dark anyway. The last few days have been tense and heart-rending. Most of us are really worried about Falloojeh. Really worried about Falloojeh and all the innocents dying and dead in that city. There were several explosions in Baghdad these last few days and hardly any of them were covered by the press. All this chaos has somehow become uncomfortably normal. Two years ago I never would have dreamed of living like this- now this lifestyle has become the norm and I can barely remembering having lived any other way. My cousin kept the kids home from school, which is happening quite often. One of the explosions today was so close, the house rocked with the impact and my cousin's wife paled, "Can you imagine if the girls had been at school when that happened- I would have died." Dozens of civilians have died these last few days in Ramadi, Falloojeh, and Samarra. We are hearing about complete families being killed under the rain of bombs being dropped by American forces. The phone lines in those areas seem to be cut off. We've been trying to call some relatives in Ramadi for the last two days, but it's next to impossible. We keep getting that dreadful busy tone and there's just no real way of knowing what is going on in there. There is talk of the use of cluster bombs and other forbidden weaponry. We're hearing various stories about the situation. The latest is that 36 American troops have been taken prisoner along with dozens of Iraqi troops. How do people feel about the Iraqi troops? There's a certain rage. It's difficult to sympathize with a fellow-countryman while he's killing one of his own. People generally call them "Dogs of Occupation" here because instead of guarding our borders or securing areas, they are used to secure American forces. They drive out in front of American cars in order to clear the roads and possibly detonate some of those road mines at a decent distance from the American tanks. At the end of the day, most of them are the remnants of militias and that's the way they act. And now they are being used in Falloojeh against other Iraqis. The whole situation is making me sick and there's a fury building up. The families in Falloojeh have been relegated to living in strange homes and mosques outside of the city... many of them are setting up their families inside of emptied schools and municipal buildings in Samarra and neighboring areas. Every time I see Allawi on tv talking about his regrets about 'having to attack Falloojeh' I get so angry I could scream. He's talking to the outside world, not to us. Iraqis don't buy his crap for a instant. We watch him talk and feel furious and frustrated with our new tyrant. I was watching CNN this morning and I couldn't get the image of the hospital in Falloojeh being stormed by Iraqi and American troops out of my head- the Iraqis being made to lay face-down on the ground, hands behind their backs. Young men and old men... and then the pictures of Abu Ghraib replay themselves in my mind. I think people would rather die than be taken prisoner by the Americans. The borders with Syria and Jordan are also closed and many of the highways leading to the borders have been blocked. There are rumors that there are currently 100 cars ready to detonate in Mosul, being driven by suicide bombers looking for American convoys. So what happens when Mosul turns into another Falloojeh? Will they also bomb it to the ground? I heard a report where they mentioned that Zarqawi 'had probably escaped from Falloojeh'... so where is he now? Mosul? Meanwhile, Rumsfeld is making his asinine remarks again, "There aren't going to be large numbers of civilians killed and certainly not by U.S. forces," No- there are only an 'estimated' 100,000 civilians in Falloojeh (and these are American estimations). So far, boys and men between the ages of 16 and 60 aren't being counted as 'civilians' in Falloojeh. They are being rounded up and taken away. And, *of course* the US forces aren't going to be doing the killing: The bombs being dropped on Falloojeh don't contain explosives, depleted uranium or anything harmful- they contain laughing gas- that would, of course, explain Rumsfeld's idiotic optimism about not killing civilians in Falloojeh. Also, being a 'civilian' is a relative thing in a country occupied by Americans. You're only a civilian if you're on their side. If you translate for them, or serve them food in the Green Zone, or wipe their floors- you're an innocent civilian. Everyone else is an insurgent, unless they can get a job as a 'civilian'. So this is how Bush kicks off his second term. More bloodshed. "Innocent civilians in that city have all the guidance they need as to how they can avoid getting into trouble," How do they do that Rumsfeld? While tons of explosives are being dropped upon your neighborhood, how do you do that? Do you stay inside the house and try to avoid the thousands of shards of glass that shoot out at you from shattering windows? Or do you hide under a table and hope that it's sturdy enough to keep the ceiling from crushing you? Or do you flee your house and pray to God you don't come face to face with an Apache or tank or that you aren't in the line of fire of a sniper? How do you avoid the cluster bombs and all the other horror being dealt out to the people of Falloojeh? There are a couple of things I agree with. The first is the following: "Over time you'll find that the process of tipping will take place, that more and more of the Iraqis will be angry about the fact that their innocent people are being killed..." He's right. It is going to have a decisive affect on Iraqi opinion- but just not the way he thinks. There was a time when pro-occupation Iraqis were able to say, "Let's give them a chance..." That time is over. Whenever someone says that lately, at best, they get a lot of nasty looks... often it's worse. A fight breaks out and a lot of yelling ensues... how can one condone occupation? How can one condone genocide? What about the mass graves of Falloojeh? Leaving Islam aside, how does one agree to allow the murder of fellow-Iraqis by the strongest military in the world? The second thing Rumsfeld said made me think he was reading my mind: "Rule of Iraq assassins must end..." I couldn't agree more: Get out Americans."

"After he ate that cue ball, he sizes evertything first!"

I think 'chelle is referring to "Glide" TM. It is dental floss produced by Gore (of -tex, not Al- ) It's the greatest for flossing of teeth. You won't go back to regular floss once you've tride Glide.

Maybe you're talking about this??

* bump * anybody wanna climb tomorrow? Index? or other as mentioned above?

Now that we got this "life begins at ..." thing sorted out, I thought I'd toss in another thing we're looking forward to four more years of... Bushisms. Today "I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals," Maybe tomorrow he'll say, "I'm fully in agreement with all those who agree with me!"

Dean is a much better choice in hindsight, than he was at the time. I doubt many here believed that Iraq was going to turn into the current quagmire. Dean was a one-issue guy basically. If Iraq would have stabilized he would have lost in a landslide. Hell, he probably would have lost in a landslide anyway.

Anybody been up there lately? Is Green Giant Buttress snow/ice covered? Could a fun time climber Dreamer be had tomorrow? Anybody up for that? Or Infinite Bliss maybe? Thinking sunny climbs....is Static Point still open?

I don't see us invading Iran (bombing maybe). GWB doesn't really have as much a hard-on about terrorists or WMD as he had for Saddam. Tort "reform"; i.e., making it basically impossible for a person of average means get any sort of justice versus an entity with big pockets. Further media consolidation as well as new anti-defamation laws which will make it risky to criticize those with big pockets on the internet.

Poor Mikey, four more years of guaranteed celebrity/notoreity.

Bush haters, it might help a bit to look at the bright side: 1. Bush gets to deal with his Iraq mess. Though, I'm sure those of you with friends, family in the armed forces or in Iraq, won't find this especially encouraging, I don't think Kerry differed that much with respect to his believable plans to solve the Iraq mess. Let Georgie get himself out of this mess. 2. I think Bush is actually less likely to start up a draft than Kerry would have been to. It seems clear that one thing that the generals want over there are more troops. Kerry could start up the draft and blame Bush. Bush starting up the draft will be suicide for Repubs in the house in two years. By the same reasoning, Bush has more invested in actually achieving a reasonable outcome in Iraq than Kerry would have. 3. Even though the all three branches of govt are thoroughly GOP now, one issue in which I think the repubs would revolt against George is if he attempts to further increase the deficit. On the other hand.... oh I guess you guys already know about the downsides...

RobBob dude, you're leaving at the worst time. If you just stick around for a month you'll be able to bitch about every negative event and how it's all caused by the Kerry Kabal. How fun will it be to be able to effortlessly troll get 3 people giving reasoned explanations about why Kerry kan't be blamed for the kurrent hurrikane devastation in FLA without hardly moving a finger? Kwitter.

I got at least 5 calls from various Republicans yesterday. Some taped some live. I wish I was home (and bored) so I coulda led them on and kept them on the line for as long as possible. Maybe I could've gotten a ride to my polling place!

"The leader must not fall"

What is not the fault of the terrorists?

It sounds like an obvious ploy by scumbag republican polls. They know most Bush voters would be totally embarrassed if anyone knew they were actually voting for that guy!

Well, just because that has been US policy for the last 20 years, doesn't mean we have to continue on in such fashion. I say throw the bums out!!

*BUMP* you owe it to yourself to read this before you GO OUT AND VOTE!!!

I think we're way less likely to be doing any more adventuring given what's happening to our people over in Iraq right now. We hold less leverage. You are right that I would probably shrink at the possibility of bombing another country for little reason, but if many other avenues failed, and Iran was still flipping off the world about developing nuclear weapons, I would probably support air/cruise missle strikes. Not with the current situation though. I think we've got our hands full. I don't think we need to make it any harder on our men and women in Iraq than it already is. On the other hand, this noted mideast scholar guy seems to think that Bush will probably do what you say. Just what we need, a third front! I guess at least we may actually be doing something about actual WMD's! "If Bush is reelected, it is clear that he will continue to attack his hit list, which is pre-announced. He will strike at Iran. His infantry and armor are tied down in Iraq. But he could mount a naval blockade of Iran, and he could strike it from the air. He could also intrigue with impatient junior officers in Tehran in hopes of making a coup. It would probably fail. But Bush will be tempted to try."

You guys are missing the point. It's not that we are worried about losing Iranian oil. I think the quote was to the effect of the Iranians are not at all worried about the UN putting an embargo on their oil. That is, there is really no stopping them from pursuing their nuclear ambitions, because they are not afraid of possible ramifications now that the US is bogged down in the Iraq War. Ironically the war that removed their previous enemy.

Looks like Iran's in the drivers seat now! "Questioned about a possible UN embargo on Tehran's oil exports, the former parliamentary speaker said: "The big loser will be them, not us. "If an oil embargo is slapped on Iran, the price of oil will exceed $100 per barrel, with a potential to paralyze the West's economy." World oil prices are currently around $50 a barrel." link