Yet another shooting

[tvashtarkatena]

I get this child porn comment on occasion. It's a pretty faded meme from the 70s, born of an era where porn had just burst upon the popular scene and was testing the boundaries of the first amendment. It's for people who need a good shout at something for whatever reason. Anger? Recreation? I don't bother wondering about that.

 

I let them know I'd be interested in studying the case if they have a citation they can share. No one does, of course. At then end of there talk I thank them for actively participating and they thank me for coming all the way from Seattle to speak on something we all care about. We shake hands, smile with genuine affection, and go home feeling a little lighter than when we came.

 

Japan's got a suicide problem like we have a gun death problem - 50% higher than ours, and ours is relatively high worldwide. I think about 23K Japanese commit suicide, compared to 27K gun deaths here.

 

The two problems require two different sets of policy solutions, two nationwide retreats from violence as pleasure. This is a natural, evolved trait - after all, we're apex predators, but we now have some control over where evolution takes us through the evolution and extinction of memes. Violence is one of those memes we should attempt to minimize.

[tvashtarkatena]

If you've been convicted of a violent crime, assault being the most common that skips below the background check or lack thereof radar, you are far more likely to use a gun in a violent crime. Yet in most of the US, those convicted of misdemeanor assault can buy as many guns as they want, and they do.

 

I don't believe we should sell weapons with more than six rounds, personally. Guns, with the exception of antiques, should have a heavy training, licencing, insurance regimen with some serious background checks. Perhaps limits on gun ownership, in an attempt to prevent stockpiling. Stockpiling no good. Many states already prohibit the sale of a gun to anyone who is not mentally competent, the definition of which varies from state to state.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

keep replying ttk - I don't read your garbage.

[ivan]

then why are you in spray? boring conversing w/ a person w/ no interest in listening to replies...

[ivan]

Japan's got a suicide problem like we have a gun death problem - 50% higher than ours, and ours is relatively high worldwide. I think about 23K Japanese commit suicide, compared to 27K gun deaths here.

jeebus. assumption confirmed.

 

hoping homo fucku is going to evolve past its violence-fetish seems a lot like thinking it'd ever evolve past porn from beowulf on we've been fascinated w/ revenge n' rage n' all that that entails (i type this while also watching my boy hopping up n' down in glee playing "call of duty" )

[glassgowkiss]

keep replying ttk - I don't read your garbage.

 

That pretty much sums up how fucked up you are. Not to mention you are for abusing mentally ill.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

then why are you in spray? boring conversing w/ a person w/ no interest in listening to replies...

 

There are reasonably interesting people to converse with - like you or Gene

 

I'm just not interested in hearing from the mentally ill.

 

 

[ivan]

2 folks is a way-small gene-pool for spray

 

assuming our boy is crazy, so what? i talk w/ crazy-people all the time - what exactly are you afraid of?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

2 folks is a way-small gene-pool for spray

 

assuming our boy is crazy, so what? i talk w/ crazy-people all the time - what exactly are you afraid of?

 

not just 2 - that's 2 examples. jebus, Vanya

 

You realize the site has an ignore feature and that you don't HAVE to reply to everyone, right? Kind of like real life, you know? just because someone is here does not mean they are worth the time it takes to reply. I've been on this site 10 years and those two are about as worthless as they come - no desire to continue wasting my life energy on them. Been there, done that.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

dont worry about the kakester. his life's pretty shitty, hence the tude. Perfectly understandable, considering. Not acceptable, not at all admirable, but understandable.

[genepires]

then why are you in spray? boring conversing w/ a person w/ no interest in listening to replies...

 

I'm just not interested in hearing from the mentally ill.

 

 

that is too bad. Pat may transmit him messages in a harsh fashion but I don't know anyone with more knowledge and passion for politics. His work with the ACLU is commendable and I don't understand the grief people give him over that. Working to help others? I wish I had the ability and free time.

 

If I was a betting man, I bet you two would get along in a face to face meeting. (Like most negative internet interactions)

[tvashtarkatena]

Ben Carson on guns, ladies and gentlemen! SMART.

[Jim]

Back to a random comment: It's notable that in 2015 we are likely to see deaths by firearms surpass death by vehicle for the first time.

 

So that is roughly 34,000 folks a year. You could argue, I suppose, that as a society we have made a decision to put up with that number of highway deaths to enhance a convenience - which is true and an ethical decision. We get transportation, commerce, yadda, yadda, for the tradeoff of 34k deaths a year. Though safety standards are getting better and are mandatory.

 

Looking at the gun issue it's not clear what are the benefits other than to be allowed to go down to the gun range or the local gravel pit and shoot at bottles, cans, and old appliances. And the restriction we have placed on gun ownership are minimal at best. Hell, the ATF has not been allowed by Congress to digitize their ownership files so they still work in paper - which is a yardstick of the sway of the NRA.

 

I tend to think that if we had the equivalent of a 747 smashing into a building every month of the year that we would figure out a solution to such unwarranted death. While I disagree with the Tvash often, I'd say he's correct on this one - we can find away out of this awful trend if we want to.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Back to a random comment: It's notable that in 2015 we are likely to see deaths by firearms surpass death by vehicle for the first time.

 

So that is roughly 34,000 folks a year.

 

Source?

 

And are you including suicides and deaths by cops killing in the line of duty. Those need to be separate stats.

[Jim]

 

Firearms vs Vehicles

 

CDC Summary

[genepires]

Back to a random comment: It's notable that in 2015 we are likely to see deaths by firearms surpass death by vehicle for the first time.

 

So that is roughly 34,000 folks a year.

 

Source?

 

And are you including suicides and deaths by cops killing in the line of duty. Those need to be separate stats.

 

suicides by guns would need to be included in with the murder by guns if the question of gun regulations.

 

I would hope that of the 34K deaths, not a large fraction would be by cops. they are supposed to be professional law enforcement not professional killers.

[Jim]

Yes, the statistics include suicide - which historically range from 55%-60% of the total firearms deaths per year. I don't see why these should be excluded. Often times suicide is a long term solution to a short term problem and the availability of a gun makes the otherwise difficult decision easier and permanent.

 

If you look at England, in the early 1900's suicide by using gas oven was a preferred choice. Once these were made safer there was not a compensatory mechanism and the suicide rate dropped.

 

Similarly we have made great strides in reducing vehicle fatality by 90% since the 1960's. Why not for reducing this crazy gun system?

 

As far as cop shootings - I could not find (or don't have the time to dig) the specifics, but likely they are included and average 900-1,000 a year. Interestingly, the number of toddlers killed by guns exceed the number of cops killed by guns in the U.S. Charming.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Yes, the statistics include suicide - which historically range from 55%-60% of the total firearms deaths per year. I don't see why these should be excluded.

 

Because that is a whole different issue. And it's not about *excluding* the stats it's about showing those separately.

 

I am concerned about kids getting killed first and foremost, and about mass shootings at a lesser level. There was just report about an 8 year old girl getting shot by an 11 year old for not letting him pet her puppy. That's fucked up shit. How did the kid get access to the gun? Will the owner of the gun have his guns taken away and never allowed to possess firearms again? I'd support that type of law - but it would never pass muster.

 

 

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Similarly we have made great strides in reducing vehicle fatality by 90% since the 1960's. Why not for reducing this crazy gun system?

 

 

Focusing on gun laws is nowhere nearly the solution. It's the culture man - from media to entertainment to a variety of social ills. We have a culture of guns and violence and that does not just mean ownership of firearms.

[Jim]

I haven't seen any data to suggest this. Europe has it's own collection of basement dwellers mesmerized by Call of Duty or whatever.

 

The difference is that those that feel slighted in our culture have easy access to guns.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I haven't seen any data to suggest this. Europe has it's own collection of basement dwellers mesmerized by Call of Duty or whatever.

 

The difference is that those that feel slighted in our culture have easy access to guns.

 

There are plenty of studies on this. What you consume does impact you.

 

And it's compounded by other factors - your home situation, economic realities, drug and alcohol use, and so forth.

 

But sure, you can just deny it and claim this is only about guns and their availability. Ostrich's seem to do well with the same technique.

 

 

[Jim]

Sure - give me a source of a scientific study that compares the culture of violence in the US vs Europe say, and concludes in a peer reviewed journal that the source of our much higher firearm deaths is related to this difference in "culture".

 

We have not much difference in mental illness, depression, drug and alcohol use -- but what is very, very different from other first world countries is we are awash in guns. Yea, we have a different culture alright - anyone for whatever reason can get a gun.

 

So by this proposed standard if we had the same proportion of guns that say, the U.K. has, our murder and suicide rate would be the same? Yea, right.

[tvashtarkatena]

Government doesn't do 'culture'. It does 'policy'. Now, policy may affect culture, and it often does, but to say 'it's the culture, stupid' is a worn out dodge.

 

We know this because every other civilized nations seems to have solved this problem through policy choices.

 

Speaking of kids, some schools are now implementing mass shooter training (run, hide in the bathroom, etc). GRREAAAT.

 

Frankly, I'd say it would be preferable to deny the population all of its guns than instill yet another fear-based cultural meme into our already fear-driven society.

 

One gentleman on NPR this morning said it succinctly after living in Paris for a year: "Bad things can happen anywhere, sure, but it was so nice not to have to worry about my kid getting shot every time he stepped on the Metro to go to school. It was a huge difference in quality of life."

 

And there you have it. Should our fantastically stressed out nation add "hey toddler, don't get shot at school!" to our list of bogieman, or is it time for gun owners to give one up for the team?

 

The latter, of course. Adults can handle one of their toys taken away from them better than a 5 year old can handle his/her well-being taken from them in my estimation.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Sure - give me a source of a scientific study that compares the culture of violence in the US vs Europe say, and concludes in a peer reviewed journal that the source of our much higher firearm deaths is related to this difference in "culture".

 

There is research in this area. But you can just use your brain, man. Fuckin' A.

 

The reality is our culture is a violent one, especially compared to 30 or 50 years ago. It seems pretty obvious that if you pump millions of brains with thousands of violent images over years that you'll get an uptick in violence. And there are the societal factors which I already mentioned, which compound these influences, and you conveniently ignore. We live more and more silo'd lives with less community and extended family structure and support, often in abusive situations (drugs, alcohol, physical abuse) and so on. the weird Asperger kid no longer has an uncle, grandpa, pastor, whoever to turn him around. So he fixates on thoughts of violence and sinks to a mental state where he goes on a shooting spree.

 

Performing back ground checks or more screening will have a very limited impact, and you aren't going to be able to ban guns. You could potentially impact society - through introspection and incremental change.

 

 

 

[Jim]

Hey - you asked me for a citation of the stats I quoted - and I obliged.

 

I'm ok with hand-waving and day dreams. But that doesn't cut it as evidence. I'm kinda fact-based.