Ferguson in Context

[Pete_H]

You're the expert.

 

The strawmen don't help your case, though.

 

By all accounts Brown was neither near nor attacking Wilson when Wilson finally gunned him down with multiple shots. Many witnesses stated he had his hands up. Several claim that he shot Brown while Brown was attempting to flee. Some of us would argue that Wilson's actions may have been a tad excessive, to say the least.

 

I wouldn't dis high school students too much. I've found many of them to be a good deal more intelligent and considered than some of youz guyz. Way less ideologically rigid, too. Glad to have 'em taking the reigns of a world we fucked the living shit out of without lube or saying "I love you".

 

I have a lot of faith in today's youth. However, as you recently pointed out, that age range tends to lack real world experience and maturity.

 

Regarding the testimony, apparently many eye witness were discredited for not actually having seen the shooting and just parroting what they heard happen or what they wanted to have happened.

 

Wilson stated he shot Brown multiple times because Brown kept coming and he wasn't sure he was even hitting him. As I said earlier, it seems to me to be fairly immaterial how many times wilson shot. His shooting was either justified or not.

 

As you said earlier, there must have been a lot of confusion and fear. It's not a Western where the good guy shoots the gun out of the bad guys hand. If you're a cop and you legitimately think your life is in danger, I think you go ahead and empty the whole clip.

[tvashtarkatena]

Your self described experienced isn't represented in either your opinions or your analysis. Both suck.

 

Seriously, it doesn't matter how many times you shoot someone? Really? I think it mattered a bit to Brown. Particularly considering that the autopsy reveals the last shot was probably the fatal one.

 

And Wilson wasn't sure if he was hitting the kid, yet the kid was SO CLOSE (he wasn't) that Wilson's life was threatened. What, does Wilson need to hit the gun range more often? He can't hit a 6'4" kid at 8'? Should a guy who (claims) he couldn't tell if he was hitting a target that close even be trusted with a gun? In what universe does any of what you just recounted make any sense?

 

Wilson's life wasn't seriously threatened when he gunned that kid down. That much is readily apparent from any witness's angle. But he emptied his clip into the kid anyway - at a distance - and that's OK with you.

 

Yeah, I'll go with inexperience, smarter, calmer, and kinder. I'm good with that.

 

Choke hold anyone?

[Pete_H]

 

Wilson's life wasn't seriously threatened when he gunned that kid down. That much is readily apparent from any witness's angle.

 

Didn't we cover this, like extensively, a few pages back?

 

And Brown was about 8 ft away from wilson when shot (at least according to the last washington post article I read). Check your facts, bro.

[Jim]

Oh, I'd say your being quite selective here - as much so as the other side on this one.

 

Let's see after getting punched a few times and having this guy try and take his gun (forensic evidence) the cop has no reason to expect this guy is going to try the same on advancing on him and ignoring his commands to stop?

 

No, I wasn't there. Nor were you - so your speculations are no better than the other fill-in-the blanks. The forensic evidence (3 independent reviewers) generally backed up the cop's story - and several witnesses. That is a pretty uphill battle - and quite frankly, the wrong one to attempt to make in to a poster.

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, he'd already been shot. More than twice. And he wasn't all that close when Wilson chose to finish him off - with his hands raised, apparently. Certainly too close, however, to wonder "hey, am I hitting this (size of a barn) kid?"

 

Fucking shiite don't add up to "hail of bullets required" brah.

 

Love the 'forensic evidence' line. And there's no credible proof Wilson got punched at all. His "injuries", or lack thereof, indicate otherwise. Blood on the gun could mean defensive action on the part of Brown - shielding, parrying. What we have, in the end, is the survivors story against the dead kid's story. And the survivor is a cop. History of similar events indicates (New York! New York!) clearly indicates how that almost always goes down.

 

But enough mutual titty twisting. You're obviously 100% right and I suck.

 

Back to the larger issues at hand.

 

 

[dougd]

When a petty crime like possession of a joint, or illegally obtained cigarettes leads to death, there is something profoundly fucking wrong - and it's not all on the suspect.

 

Only thing missing is the "and nobody gets punished" part. +1 other than that.

 

d

 

Oh, the officer is being "punished". That guy's life is ruined - at least for some time going forward. He's currently in focus of a media firestorm. The stress this will put on him and his life is punishment.

 

Is it the right punishment? Legal, involving an indictment and possible imprisonment, dunno.

 

Will any amount of punishment bring back the dead man and give solace to his family? Would a lengthy trial with an innocent verdict be satisfactory or just cause more pain all around? Would the guy losing his job and never being allowed to work again in law enforcement be a good 'punishment'?

 

I'd just rather see these things not happen. Trying this cop seems like treating a symptom - a bandaid. Having zero such incidents is unlikely but how about reducing them to a number where they are a rarity and not something that pops up as frequently as they do?

 

My reference above was related to the incident in NY. Not Wilson. I'm not commenting on the Ferguson in Context because I'm finding it difficult to do, given that I'm a middle aged white guy from the Pacific NW and the only time I get hassled by cops is when I try to cross the border into Canada with my climbing stuff it seems...

 

I am wholly unqualified to put Ferguson in Context. So I'm trying to listen.

 

d

[tvashtarkatena]

The advantage high schoolers have is that they haven't choked down a stockyard load of bullshit over a lifetime. Like "Emptying your clip into an unarmed person is perfectly OK. It's what they're trained to do."

 

And it is OK - in a war zone, but the rest of the civilized world, where policing is very different - has found a way to police largely without such extreme levels of violence. Hmmmm.

 

Ah well, we'll all be dead soon enough, and the kids, who couldn't give two shits about race or sexual preference for the most part, will be able to enjoy each other that much more.

[Pete_H]

 

But enough mutual titty twisting. You're obviously 100% right and I suck.

 

Finally. I knew you'd come around eventually.

[tvashtarkatena]

Everybody comes around when titty twisted. That shit hurts.

[Jim]

Yeah And he wasn't all that close when Wilson chose to finish him off - with his hands raised, apparently.

 

Well, the three forensic experts don't agree with this statement, and the changing stories and conflicting eye witness testimony doesn't match your speculations either.

 

I'll pass on commenting further on hyperbole.

 

What I don't get -- is why these constructions don't provide the cop the same legal process of say, the Innocents Project, where it's been shown over and over that eyewitness testimony can often be fuzzy at best and reliance on forensics is more important. Several eyewitness in this case were discredited as there stories did not match the physical evidence, they admitted they did not see the things they claimed, or that they changed their story. Not very credible.

 

One is left with some indisputable facts - facial bruising, powder burns on Brown's hands, discharged rounds in the car, distance of Brown to Wilson. Could Wilson have handled it differently -- maybe. Could Brown have -- yep. Given we're left with the physical evidence that matches the cop's story, and some conflicting eye witnesses -- our legal system doesn't indict on innuendo.

 

There's a lot of racial issues in policing. This is just not one of them.

[tvashtarkatena]

The much needed shitstorm has finally begun. Pattern of excessive force? Over militarization? I think we're gonna find both in almost every major US city. All we have to do is pry that lid off.

 

Stay tuned.

 

It's very interesting seeing America transition from bat shit crazy to...something.

 

Just in time for the robots to come and take it all away.

[pink]

did the black feller just choked to death by the cops for selling untaxed cigs deserve his death too, thus the new york grand jury decision?

 

shit, simple economics right? you try to sell something for 2$ a piece that really only costs 2 cents, aren't you asking for the black market (pardon the pun) to get involved?

[ivan]

Everybody comes around when titty twisted. That shit hurts.

 

the 8th degree of the spanish inquistion?

[ivan]

if steve hawkings is right, we have nothign to worry about - the a.i. engines soon to be attached to the darpa fucking killer cheetah robot chassis will settle all our law enforcement exegeses soon enough

[Fairweather]

Well, at least we're finally talking about this nationwide problem in earnest.

 

I gave a talk at Garfield High this morning to about 100 students (not in this topic). Ferguson came up while conversing with the student organizers. According to them, it's a hot topic around the school - and most of the students do not share many of the sentiments presented here.

 

Just a data point.

 

One that gives me a lot of hope for the future, although they will have the killer robots to contend with.

 

Garfield is an amazing school, BTW. Their theater/arts/music program is awesome, and they've got the facilities to do it up right.

 

Well, you certainly make a case for private & home school. That a tool like you was invited to indoctrinate other people's k-12 kids in a compulsory setting is truly stunning.

[G-spotter]

if steve hawkings is right, we have nothign to worry about - the a.i. engines soon to be attached to the darpa fucking killer cheetah robot chassis will settle all our law enforcement exegeses soon enough

 

KEANU

 

WHAT IF WHEN WE MAKE THE ROBOTS AS SMART AS US THEY GET ALL WEIRD AND AUTISTIC LIKE WE DO?

 

/KEANU

[ivan]

 

Well, you certainly make a case for private & home school. That a tool like you was invited to indoctrinate other people's k-12 kids in a compulsory setting is truly stunning.

you have a high opinion of indoctrination - i could screech at my kids everyday to smoke crack and worship satan and i bet at least 50% would join convents soon thereafter...

 

loved it when i submited my papers to bring don benton into my senior gov class last year - my admin was adamant: "he's a raging republican asshole" - "yeah, i know, ain't it great?"

[Fairweather]

As long as you balanced out your course with a raging Democratic asshole, no problem. Of course, there's a difference between an elected official--and a partisan activist like TTK. The latter has no business presenting in a public school. If he is bent on indoctrinating kids, he should stick to whatever progeny his dust-filled sack is capable of producing.

[tvashtarkatena]

Landru! Landru!

[Fairweather]

Landru! Landru!

 

You mean Landrieu? I guess it doesn't really matter--as long as there's a D next to the name.

[tvashtarkatena]

set phasers to clueless

[ivan]

Of course, there's a difference between an elected official--and a partisan activist like TTK.

if history has any lesson, it's that any loser n' asshole can get elected - i see little difference between the tw

 

you miss my point anyhow - you can't indoctrinate apathy - have you even tried outside these hallowed halls? it's a cruel age for accruing the clueless to a cause

[ivan]

set phasers to clueless

deep nerd shit that - been watching the original series w/ my kidz lately and ain't got to that that'un yet - "the doomsday machine" was quite the hit though

[tvashtarkatena]

after i flew my drone around the theater - and into the orchestra pit under the stage (not so good with a gaming console), one kid asked when sentient machines were gonna happen. another raised his hand and said "well, its either gonna be the three laws or the apocalypse"

 

I love these kids!

[ivan]

they watch their movies, what more can ye ask?

 

the wifey got herself a smart-phone the other day - i cackled me ass of when i asked her suri about the hal-9000