151st Anniversary

[ivan]

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

 

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

 

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

 

How'd the old boy w/ the tall-hat reckon things today ya figure?

[Jim]

 

Great book I assume you have read:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-at-Gettysburg-Garry-Wills/dp/1416565736

 

 

[Ben Beckerich]

Good man; good words. Lost meaning; lost cause.

[tvashtarkatena]

To you, maybe.

 

That must suck.

[Ben Beckerich]

To you, maybe.

 

That must suck.

 

LOL.. what?

 

Mr. Fuck-the-Constitution-in-the-ass sayeth what?

 

I'll take my licks for being a willfully apathetic, jaded, political cynic- but not from you. If they drew a line in the sand, raised our heroes from their graves and passed out guns, it'd be you and Susan Sontag on one side and me and Lincoln on the other.

 

And it'd be an easy fight, 'cause guns would be illegal on your side. Irony.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Ben Beckerich

[astrov]

Did they have corporate campaign contributions in Lincoln's day?

[ivan]

Did they have corporate campaign contributions in Lincoln's day?

cool quote from one of abe's letters to a friend:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the (Civil) war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

[ivan]

i think he'd be mighty suprised it was the democrats to get the first black man into the white house

[ivan]

i don't think he'd be suprised at all at the intensity of partisanship today either, and would have prefered it to the greater extremes that prompted his visit to gettysburg in the first place

[ivan]

Did they have corporate campaign contributions in Lincoln's day?

you think halliburton'ed ponied up?

[tvashtarkatena]

I view myself as more of a sautee-the-Constitution-a-little-grass-fed-strip-and-asparagus-before-taking-it-out-dancing kind of guy. I can hardly take the blame for what happens after that.

 

At 2.99 a gallon, that extra trip to Butch's Guns ain't gonna cost ya much. Still, if you need a loan, just let a brother know. I've got 5 bucks laying around here somewhere.

[astrov]

Did they have corporate campaign contributions in Lincoln's day?

cool quote from one of abe's letters to a friend:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the (Civil) war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

 

Prescient.

[dougd]

Did they have corporate campaign contributions in Lincoln's day?

cool quote from one of abe's letters to a friend:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the (Civil) war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

 

That "quote" is a nice find for sure. Odd that I don't recall seeing it when I read the 700+ - page Lincoln biography I read a few years back... but anyway.

 

I have Lincoln as the hands down #1 of all time Republican Presidents. Not a tough one to see IMO. That whole thing with suspending habeas corpus is a bit of a sticky wicket, but the necessity of that is debated by much smarter folks than me.

 

Lincoln was great no doubt but he'd be overall #2 or 3 in my pantheon of the greatest...

 

d

[ivan]

That "quote" is a nice find for sure. Odd that I don't recall seeing it when I read the 700+ - page Lincoln biography I read a few years back... but anyway.

 

can't remember when i first ran into it - the internets seem to disagree on its authenticity with decent-looking cases both for and against - even if true, it wouldn't make lincoln the only republican war-time president to get the heebie-jeebies on the subject, no?

[ivan]

hard to find a greater illustration of brevity being the soul of wit though, no?

 

i like that the photographer didn't have time to get a picture of the big man before he was hustling off the stage, and that lincoln's first reaction to the slight applause was "that speech won't scour."

[ivan]

the american republic seems to enjoy a reputation similiar to the native american civilization it conquered: always supposed on the brink of annihiliation, predicted to be gone tomorrow, yet somehow still here after all these years

[Ben Beckerich]

the american republic seems to enjoy a reputation similiar to the native american civilization it conquered: always supposed on the brink of annihiliation, predicted to be gone tomorrow, yet somehow still here after all these years

 

Yea... except the native culture actually WAS annihilated.

[Pete_H]

Getting in the way of progress turns out is a motherfucker

[Fairweather]

Did they have corporate campaign contributions in Lincoln's day?

cool quote from one of abe's letters to a friend:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the (Civil) war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

 

False.

 

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.asp

 

 

Ivan, respectfully you should know better than this. The temptation to tweak history in order to fit a contemporary world view is pretty normal. But passing along whole-cloth falsehoods is something I would expect from others here--not you.

 

"The above quote, attributed to President Abraham Lincoln, has been periodically dusted off and presented to the public as a prophetic warning about the destruction of America through the usurpation of power and concentration of wealth by capitalist tyrants for over a century now, undergoing a renewed burst of popularity whenever wartime exigencies stir public debate over governmental policies. These words did not originate with Abraham Lincoln, however — they appear in none of his collected writings or speeches, and they did not surface until more than twenty years after his death (and were immediately denounced as a "bold, unflushing forgery" by John Nicolay, Lincoln's private secretary). This spurious Lincoln warning gained currency during the 1896 presidential election season (when economic policy, particularly the USA's adherence to the gold standard, was the major campaign issue), and ever since then it has been cited and quoted by innumerable journalists, clergymen, congressmen, and compilers of encyclopedias. . . . Why have these "money powers" words been put in the mouth of Abraham Lincoln? In a general sense, the reason is because dead people — especially revered leaders — make great commentators on modern-day politics: They can't be questioned about the legitimacy of their comments, interrogated about what they meant, or asked to elaborate about the subject at hand . . ."

 

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lincoln.asp#S7ge6Ox6DSSybBVK.99[/i]

 

 

Edited November 20, 2014 by Fairweather

[ivan]

another snopes page makes a contradictory conclusion and doesn't have the hoof-prints of bat-shit crazy (not to mean that i think the one you point at does either) - i would not accuse myself of tweaking history as i have an open mind on the quote and am quite capable of being persuaded it is in fact bullshit - like herotodus himself, i took into account the source by which i first heard the excerpt and have a healthy superstition of it -

 

from another snopes thread (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=2128&page=3):

 

What Lincoln Foresaw:

Corporations Being "Enthroned" After the Civil War

and Re-Writing the Laws Defining Their Existence

 

by Rick Crawford, crawford@cs.ucdavis.edu

 

 

 

Here is a sobering quote by Abe Lincoln:

 

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that

unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of

my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and

an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the

money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its

reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until

all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic

is destroyed."

 

-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864

(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw

(Macmillan, 1950, NY)

 

Some people expressed doubts about its authenticity, given

Lincoln's work as an attorney for railroad corporations! It was an

interesting job tracking it down and verifying its authenticity.

 

The first ref I heard for this quote was Jack London's 1908 Iron

Heel. And although the quote indeed appears there (near p. 100),

Jack London offered neither context nor source.

 

More recently, David Korten's book, When Corporations Rule the

World (1995, Kumarian Press), sources the quote to Harvey

Wasserman (America Born and Reborn, Macmillan, 1983, p. 89-90,

313), who in turn sources it to Paha Sapa Reports, the newspaper

of the Black Hills Alliance, Rapid City, South Dakota, 4 March

1982. But given Wasserman's ties to Howard Zinn, and his status as

co-founder (?) of the Liberation News Service, citing that kind of

trail is like waving a red flag for the skeptics ;-)

 

Fortunately, after some burrowing in the univ. library, I was able

to confirm its authenticity. Here it is, with more surrounding

context:

 

"We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end.

It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. . . .

It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but

I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes

me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war,

corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places

will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong

its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth

is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.

I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety

of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.

God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."

 

The passage appears in a letter from Lincoln to (Col.) William F.

Elkins, Nov. 21, 1864.

 

For a reliable pedigree, cite p. 40 of The Lincoln Encyclopedia,

by Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY). That traces the quote's

lineage to p. 954 of Abraham Lincoln: A New Portrait, (Vol. 2) by

Emanuel Hertz (Horace Liveright Inc, 1931, NY).

 

Based on about 3 hrs of research, it appears Lincoln has been

extensively SANITIZED FOR OUR PROTECTION. The Hidden Lincoln; from

the Letters and Papers of William H. Herndon, by Emanuel Hertz

(Viking Press, 1938, NY), details how Herndon (Lincoln's lifelong

law partner) collected an extensive oral history and aggregated

much of Lincoln's writings into a collection that served as the

basis for many "authoritative" books on Lincoln.

 

By all accounts, Herndon was scrupulously honest and plainspoken.

Hertz quotes Herndon's characterization of the various "big-name"

authors who relied on his collection for primary source materials:

 

"They are aiming, first, to do a superb piece of

literary work; second, to make the story WITH THE

CLASSES AS AGAINST THE MASSES. [my emphasis added] It

will result in delineating the real Lincoln about as

well as does a wax figure in the museum."

 

In several books, I found numerous places where Lincoln spoke

about Capital and Labor ("Workingmen"). Lincoln re-used his own

material frequently, and virtually identical passages appear in

several places. Lincoln praises the moral rightness of both

Capital and Labor, but this is invariably in the context of a

nation where NO MORE THAN ONE MAN IN EIGHT is a Capitalist or a

Laborer, ie, where 7/8 of the population are "self-employed" on

their own farms and homesteads.

 

This social context of general self-sufficiency would explain how

Lincoln could serve for years as a railroad corporation lawyer

with (apparently) no qualms, yet pen the "corporations enthroned"

passage to Elkins.

 

A final Lincoln tidbit, although it pertains to one very specific

case:

 

"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in

concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got

into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to

appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel."

 

speech to Illinois legislature, Jan. 1837.

See Vol. 1, p. 24 of Lincoln's Complete Works,

ed. by Nicolay and Hay, 1905)

 

-rick crawford@cs.ucdavis.edu

[ivan]

the american republic seems to enjoy a reputation similiar to the native american civilization it conquered: always supposed on the brink of annihiliation, predicted to be gone tomorrow, yet somehow still here after all these years

 

Yea... except the native culture actually WAS annihilated.

yet their warm springs radio station is always rocking when i pass through on the way to smith

 

 

[Fairweather]

another snopes page makes a contradictory conclusion and doesn't have the hoof-prints of bat-shit crazy (not to mean that i think the one you point at does either) - i would not accuse myself of tweaking history as i have an open mind on the quote and am quite capable of being persuaded it is in fact bullshit - like herotodus himself, i took into account the source by which i first heard the excerpt and have a healthy superstition of it -

 

from another snopes thread (http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=2128&page=3):

 

What Lincoln Foresaw:

Corporations Being "Enthroned" After the Civil War

and Re-Writing the Laws Defining Their Existence

 

by Rick Crawford, crawford@cs.ucdavis.edu

 

 

 

Here is a sobering quote by Abe Lincoln:

 

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that

unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of

my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and

an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the

money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its

reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until

all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic

is destroyed."

 

-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864

(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

Ref: The Lincoln Encyclopedia, Archer H. Shaw

(Macmillan, 1950, NY)

 

Some people expressed doubts about its authenticity, given

Lincoln's work as an attorney for railroad corporations! It was an

interesting job tracking it down and verifying its authenticity.

 

The first ref I heard for this quote was Jack London's 1908 Iron

Heel. And although the quote indeed appears there (near p. 100),

Jack London offered neither context nor source.

 

More recently, David Korten's book, When Corporations Rule the

World (1995, Kumarian Press), sources the quote to Harvey

Wasserman (America Born and Reborn, Macmillan, 1983, p. 89-90,

313), who in turn sources it to Paha Sapa Reports, the newspaper

of the Black Hills Alliance, Rapid City, South Dakota, 4 March

1982. But given Wasserman's ties to Howard Zinn, and his status as

co-founder (?) of the Liberation News Service, citing that kind of

trail is like waving a red flag for the skeptics ;-)

 

Fortunately, after some burrowing in the univ. library, I was able

to confirm its authenticity. Here it is, with more surrounding

context:

 

"We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end.

It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. . . .

It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but

I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes

me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war,

corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places

will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong

its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth

is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.

I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety

of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.

God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."

 

The passage appears in a letter from Lincoln to (Col.) William F.

Elkins, Nov. 21, 1864.

 

For a reliable pedigree, cite p. 40 of The Lincoln Encyclopedia,

by Archer H. Shaw (Macmillan, 1950, NY). That traces the quote's

lineage to p. 954 of Abraham Lincoln: A New Portrait, (Vol. 2) by

Emanuel Hertz (Horace Liveright Inc, 1931, NY).

 

Based on about 3 hrs of research, it appears Lincoln has been

extensively SANITIZED FOR OUR PROTECTION. The Hidden Lincoln; from

the Letters and Papers of William H. Herndon, by Emanuel Hertz

(Viking Press, 1938, NY), details how Herndon (Lincoln's lifelong

law partner) collected an extensive oral history and aggregated

much of Lincoln's writings into a collection that served as the

basis for many "authoritative" books on Lincoln.

 

By all accounts, Herndon was scrupulously honest and plainspoken.

Hertz quotes Herndon's characterization of the various "big-name"

authors who relied on his collection for primary source materials:

 

"They are aiming, first, to do a superb piece of

literary work; second, to make the story WITH THE

CLASSES AS AGAINST THE MASSES. [my emphasis added] It

will result in delineating the real Lincoln about as

well as does a wax figure in the museum."

 

In several books, I found numerous places where Lincoln spoke

about Capital and Labor ("Workingmen"). Lincoln re-used his own

material frequently, and virtually identical passages appear in

several places. Lincoln praises the moral rightness of both

Capital and Labor, but this is invariably in the context of a

nation where NO MORE THAN ONE MAN IN EIGHT is a Capitalist or a

Laborer, ie, where 7/8 of the population are "self-employed" on

their own farms and homesteads.

 

This social context of general self-sufficiency would explain how

Lincoln could serve for years as a railroad corporation lawyer

with (apparently) no qualms, yet pen the "corporations enthroned"

passage to Elkins.

 

A final Lincoln tidbit, although it pertains to one very specific

case:

 

"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in

concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got

into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to

appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel."

 

speech to Illinois legislature, Jan. 1837.

See Vol. 1, p. 24 of Lincoln's Complete Works,

ed. by Nicolay and Hay, 1905)

 

-rick crawford@cs.ucdavis.edu

 

Mr Crawford is practicing the trade of the historian, that is, synthesizing attributed data to arrive at a particular conclusion. This is quite different than putting one's conclusion into the form of a (mis)quote and passing it off as part of the record. Not saying this is what you were doing, rather, that preserving the record is worth more than scoring political points in the here and now. Particularly troubling when you look back on this thread and see how easily it was soaked up by doug (aka "d"), Astrov, others.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2014 by Fairweather

[ivan]

so do you disagree w/ crawford's conclusion or not? if he is in fact correct, that on nov 21, 1864 lincoln did write a letter which contained that quote, requoting it 150 years later would in fact be "preserving the record." at any rate, if you look upthread you'll see i wasn't trying to "score political points" but rather connecting a snarky comment on corporations to a quote i'd heard from lincoln about corporations.

 

regardless of the authenticity of the quote, what do you think lincoln would have made of the rampant corruption of the gilded age that corresponded w/ the rise of corporations?

[Fairweather]

so do you disagree w/ crawford's conclusion or not? if he is in fact correct, that on nov 21, 1864 lincoln did write a letter which contained that quote, requoting it 150 years later would in fact be "preserving the record." at any rate, if you look upthread you'll see i wasn't trying to "score political points" but rather connecting a snarky comment on corporations to a quote i'd heard from lincoln about corporations.

 

regardless of the authenticity of the quote, what do you think lincoln would have made of the rampant corruption of the gilded age that corresponded w/ the rise of corporations?

 

I think Lincoln's supposed fears were realized during the excesses of the Gilded Age which, in turn, were partially reconciled during the Teddy Roosevelt/Taft/Progressive/Fordism era, which, in turn, were offset during the Harding/Cal/Hoover days, which, in turn, were back-lashed under FRD's New Deal, which, in turn, were partially offset by a booming post-WWII industrial economy, offset by LBJ/Nixon/Carter, offset by Reagan/Bush, swing to Clinton, back to GW, and so it goes.

 

The pendulum swings back and forth and I don't really think it takes much imagination or effort to make a case for presidential prescience. Still, the details remain important, IMO. By November of 1864 Lincoln pretty much knew the war was won. Nevertheless, I doubt that the rise of corporations was foremost on his list of worries.

 

 

[dougd]

Doubting "that the rise of corporations was foremost on his list of worries" is safe enough, but it's entirely likely, considering the task of reconstruction ahead, this man would have considered the possibilities up to and including the rise of corporate America.

 

Lincoln was a pretty smart dude...

 

d