special permits for guides?

[mountainsandsound]

Something I was just randomly contemplating... When a guide service schedules a trip to a park where permits are required but not available in advance (I'm thinking of NCNP), are they just banking on the fact that they will be first in line that morning and get the permit, or does the park actually give them some sort of special permit in advance?

[JasonG]

There may be something special going on, but I do know that you can get them 24 hours in advance, and I've heard that the guide services will send folks up the day before. Also, they try to have their trips run during the week so as not to hog the popular spots on the weekend. During the week permits are usually not too bad to get in the park, perhaps with the exception of BB.

 

I'm sure Kurt, Chris, Forrest, etc. can correct me where I've gotten it wrong.

[kurthicks]

Anyone from your party can arrive 24 hours before your trip starts to get a permit from any of the NCNP offices as far as I know.

[mountainsandsound]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. I think my Mt. Vernon friend did that in the Sedro Woolley office before we climbed Shuksan. That's a good little rule!

[chris]

Kurt's got it right - anyone in your team can get the permit 24 hours in advance. Boston Basin is the only zone that I've ever had problems getting into. Depending on what your objectives are, I've simply had an alternative climb ready to go too.

[mountainsandsound]

Do you guys ever head up there the day before to increase the likelihood of a permit, or just get there early the day of and have the alternative ready to execute if needed?

[num1mc]

From an e-mail from NPS-NOCA

 

Hi Num1mc -- If you are with a guiding service, you can apply for a commercial use authorization permit with the park, and with that comes the option to make reservations for some areas. For more information on commercial permits, insurance, guide requirements, and the like, please contact Tammra Sterling at 360-854-7213, or via email at Tammra_sterling@nps.gov.

 

For all of the cross country zones like Boston Basin, reservations for guided parties are limited to 2 of the 6 permits. The remainder are available for all groups on a first come, first serve basis. You can get a permit the day of or the day before, but no earlier.

 

Hope this helps, and let me know if you have any other questions.

Edited April 24, 2014 by num1mc

[JasonG]

Ah ha! So there is something special going on. I guess I need to have Gordo get his guide's permit and make it official.

 

So how do the guides fight it out for those limited reservations? Battle Cage in the back of Chom's?

[dberdinka]

Guide services, at least those that have jumped through all the hoops, have been able to reserve trips in advance for as long as I can remember in permit-limited areas of the NCNP. It's curious how very park handles guiding issues differently. In Zion guiding of any sort is prohibited.

[num1mc]

Guide services, at least those that have jumped through all the hoops, have been able to reserve trips in advance for as long as I can remember in permit-limited areas of the NCNP

 

And the only ones that can legally operate are the ones who have jumped thru the hoops.

[Bronco]

Ah ha! So there is something special going on. I guess I need to have Gordo get his guide's permit and make it official.

 

So how do the guides fight it out for those limited reservations? Battle Cage in the back of Chom's?

 

Does this mean he's been guiding all of these trips without a permit? I always assumed he was a guide of the first degree solely based on the eyewear.

[chris]

A permitted guide service is able to make a reservation only before 31 May, and pays a special non-refundable fee for that reserved permit - after 31 May guide services have to apply just like anyone else, and any unreserved permits are made available to everyone.

 

Probably 90% of my guided trips are booked after this reservation deadline - last year, it was 100%. Normally I just get there in time for opening and and have a second plan ready - remember, its not a big deal to me if I repeat a route (besides, there are some really fun alternatives). I wasn't able to get the permit I wanted twice last year. Depending on the length of the trip, I also try to avoid entering Boston Basin on the weekend. If a guest is insistent on climbing in Boston Basin (i.e. would rather cancel than climb something else), I'll offer to head over a day early providing I'm compensated for my time.

 

Caveat - this is the system as I understand it, but I don't own a guide service and don't routinely have to deal with commercial permitting, so I may be wrong. And just to be clear, a guide service actually has two permits in NOCA - a commercial permit to operate within the park, and then a wilderness permit for a specific trip, just like a non-guided trip.

[genepires]

the NPS, gets something in return for the special privilege given to guide services. It may or may not a written obligation in the permit application, but guides in the area are expected to assist in any emergency responses as long as their clients are not put into harms way. At least that was how I interpreted it some 10 years ago.

I helped out in one rescue in boston basin in this kind of situation and was glad to do so.

[Fromage]

I helped out in one rescue in boston basin in this kind of situation and was glad to do so.

 

Not only is this exemplary climbing ethics, it can provide a valuable, educational, and memorable experience for clients if they participate in the rescue as well. Nothing reinforces the lessons of checking your rap anchors, backing up your belay device, and placing good pro than seeing the consequences of screwing it up.