IRS "scandal"

[glassgowkiss]

Read

Now why is only conservative groups are crying foul? And why should they be granted 503c status in the first place. Political organizations are for profit- period. It's not like they do charitable work. On that token let's grant every corporation 503c status.

[rob]

Read

Now why is only conservative groups are crying foul? And why should they be granted 503c status in the first place. Political organizations are for profit- period. It's not like they do charitable work. On that token let's grant every corporation 503c status.

 

I think you mean 501©(3). 501©(3) organizations are absolutely forbidden from supporting or even intervening on behalf of political candidates or elections at all, and have severe restrictions on lobbying.

 

The tea party groups in question were applying for 501©(4) status, which allows for certain political activities. Donations to 501©(4) non-profit corporations are generally not tax-deductible (unlike 501©(3) donations).

 

The important takeaway here is that non-profit does not necessarily mean "charitable," and the IRS code maintains something like 30 different types of non-profit categories, only one type of which is generally considered to contain "charitable" organizations.

 

[glassgowkiss]

You are right 501c. But the fact remains they are just political organizations and should not be granted tax exempt status in any way shape and form. These guys are just abusing the system, and now they are distorting the truth about "being targeted".

[tvashtarkatena]

Non profit advocacy organizations are nearly always involved in policy making somehow - that's kind of what they do. They are a very important way for citizens to actively participate in our democracy.

[ivan]

seems like a sisyphean task them irs boys are handed?

[rob]

You are right 501c. But the fact remains they are just political organizations and should not be granted tax exempt status in any way shape and form. These guys are just abusing the system, and now they are distorting the truth about "being targeted".

 

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion that politically-based social organizations should not be granted non-profit status. (This would include most, if not all, labor unions, btw.)

 

But, I'm not sure how you think the tea-party groups are "abusing" anything by seeking the same non-profit status that many liberal social-welfare groups also enjoy. I would refuse to support a political organization of any kind that did not maintain a non-profit tax-filing status.

 

Would you rather that political organizations kept surplus revenues and distributed them as dividends to their members, rather than using the excess money to support their charter goals? Who would support such an organization? And why would anybody agree to give up profit equity in an organization if the government didn't give anything back in exchange? That's the whole point of a non-profit company.

 

If you have info that these tea-party organizations are actually operating as for-profit corporations disguised as non-profits, you should contact the authorities with your evidence. I think the IRS has a hotline, and I think you're even entitled to a percentage of money recovered by the government.

Edited June 4, 2013 by rob

[glassgowkiss]

I think these organizations should not be tax exempt, regardless of the side of political spectrum.

[chris]

I know its Wikipedia, but this is a good place to start getting educated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501©_organization#501.28c.29.284.29

 

501©(4) organizations may inform the public on controversial subjects and attempt to influence legislation relevant to its program[37] and, unlike 501©(3) organizations, they may also participate in political campaigns and elections, as long as its primary activity is the promotion of social welfare.[38] However, 501©(4) organizations are not permitted direct or indirect participation or intervention in political campaigns on behalf of, or in opposition to any candidate for public office.[36] The tax exemption for 501©(4) organizations applies to most of their operations, but contributions may be subject to gift tax, and income spent on political activities - generally the advocacy of a particular candidate in an election - is taxable.[39]

 

Contributions to 501©(4) organizations are usually not deductible as charitable contributions for U.S. federal income tax, with a few exceptions.[40] 501©(4) organizations are not required to disclose their donors publicly.

 

So it appears to me that these groups aren't seeking tax-exemption, but are simply seeking to keep their donor list private.

[glassgowkiss]

So it appears to me that these groups aren't seeking tax-exemption, but are simply seeking to keep their donor list private.

which is nothing less then political money laundering. I would not be surprised also if it is a real money laundering for drug cartels and foreign intelligence services. Along with unsupervised "just meta-data" gathering it makes me feel like I am back in Poland 30 years ago.

 

[JayB]

I know its Wikipedia, but this is a good place to start getting educated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501©_organization#501.28c.29.284.29

 

501©(4) organizations may inform the public on controversial subjects and attempt to influence legislation relevant to its program[37] and, unlike 501©(3) organizations, they may also participate in political campaigns and elections, as long as its primary activity is the promotion of social welfare.[38] However, 501©(4) organizations are not permitted direct or indirect participation or intervention in political campaigns on behalf of, or in opposition to any candidate for public office.[36] The tax exemption for 501©(4) organizations applies to most of their operations, but contributions may be subject to gift tax, and income spent on political activities - generally the advocacy of a particular candidate in an election - is taxable.[39]

 

Contributions to 501©(4) organizations are usually not deductible as charitable contributions for U.S. federal income tax, with a few exceptions.[40] 501©(4) organizations are not required to disclose their donors publicly.

 

So it appears to me that these groups aren't seeking tax-exemption, but are simply seeking to keep their donor list private.

 

Just out of curiosity - do you think that private citizens should be able to keep their contributions to organizations that engage in political activities (I include any organization that engages in any lobbying at any level in this category)anonymous and exempt from government scrutiny?

 

I've been kind of surprised at how many left-of-center groups and pundits are advocating entirely eliminating the tax exemptions mentioned above. It seems to me that that would lead to a state of affairs in which the government has an expanded capacity to monitor individuals and organizations that are engaging in political activity. Given the civil-libertarian streak that has historically permeated left-of-center politics, the fact that "The Man" hasn't always been sympathetic to left-of-center causes, and the well documented history of the government abusing its powers to the detriment of left-of-center causes and groups I'd hope that there would be an outcry on the left to preserve and expand these exemptions rather than eliminate them.

 

IMO the only way to preserve a space for political activity that is totally free from politically motivated acts of retribution, harassment, and abuse is to keep the government from getting their hands on the information that would allow them to target individuals in the first place. The fact that private donor lists that conservative groups were forced to disclose to the IRS somehow made it into the hands progressive groups, and other groups of donors just happened to find themselves subject to a considerable amount of extra scrutiny should, at the very least, cause folks on the civil-libertarian side of the modern left to stop and ponder how they would respond if the same disclosures of private donor data and additional government scrutiny were visited on causes that they support.

 

 

 

[rob]

So it appears to me that these groups aren't seeking tax-exemption, but are simply seeking to keep their donor list private.

which is nothing less then political money laundering. I would not be surprised also if it is a real money laundering for drug cartels and foreign intelligence services. Along with unsupervised "just meta-data" gathering it makes me feel like I am back in Poland 30 years ago.

 

it's not like the political organizations don't have to report their expenditures. In fact, non-profit organizations are under *even-more* scrutiny when it comes to documenting income and expenditures, in order to maintain non-profit status. Whether the list of donors the money came from is anonymous or not has nothing to do with money-laundering if the money still has to be accounted for.

 

It sounds to me like you're looking for reasons to hate these organizations. You may not like what they stand for but they have a right to use the political system to lobby for legislation. There are plenty of 501©(4) liberal organizations, are they all money laundering, too?

[glassgowkiss]

If you don't know the sources, what kind of "accounting" are you talking about? If you remove transparency, how do you avoid foreign money influencing elections? I think your approach is completely naive. It's the same argument of self regulating by banking industry- it simply never worked.

[rob]

If you don't know the sources, what kind of "accounting" are you talking about? If you remove transparency, how do you avoid foreign money influencing elections? I think your approach is completely naive. It's the same argument of self regulating by banking industry- it simply never worked.

 

It's nothing at all like self-regulating. I don't think you know much about what you're so outraged about. But don't let that stop you

 

I only happen to know what I know about 501© companies because a non-profit organization I'm a member of recently went through this process with the IRS to get our non-profit status.

 

For the record, 501©(4) corporations are required to file a Form 990, which states all income and expenditures so your argument that this is "no less than money laundering" is just plain retarded.

 

Your concern that donors might be foreign is a valid concern, and there is a variety of existing law that requires 501©(4) corporations to disclose their donor lists, depending on the type of activities they are engaged in (for example, some states require 501©(4) companies engaged in supporting/fighting ballot measures to disclose their donor list -- remember that brouhaha in California regarding disclosing opponents of the same-sex marriage initiatives?). Additionally, organizations engaged in lobbying the government sometimes fall under the Lobby Disclosure Act, which requires the names and addresses of some donors and affiliated organizations which donate specific amounts and/or are engaged in the operations of the lobbying itself.

 

The point is, it's actually really complicated stuff, and this stuff is pretty regulated. Your assertions that this is a self-regulated industry in which foreign intelligence services and drug cartels freely launder their money is laughable, man

 

 

BTW, it was the supreme court that recognized the need to protect donors 1st amendment rights from compelled disclosure of association. Why should the government have a right to know which organizations I support with my money, etc.

 

I do agree with you about one thing, though -- non-profit organizations should still be taxed. ESPECIALLY religions. We should tax those guys twice.

[kevbone]

but they have a right to use the political system to lobby for legislation.

 

What right are you referring too? Constitutional?

[rob]

but they have a right to use the political system to lobby for legislation.

 

What right are you referring too? Constitutional?

 

What is "rights"?

[kevbone]

but they have a right to use the political system to lobby for legislation.

 

What right are you referring too? Constitutional?

 

What is "rights"?

 

What ARE right?

[ivan]

why is hitler and where is good?

[ivan]

where ARE the snowdens of yesteryear?

[Mickel]

seems like a sisyphean task them irs boys are handed?

 

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[G-spotter]

Why is it wrong to give groups that oppose the collection of taxes extra scrutiny when they apply for tax-exempt status?

 

Is it any different than giving priests extra scrutiny when searching for pedophiles?

[pink]

Why is it wrong to give groups that oppose the collection of taxes extra scrutiny when they apply for tax-exempt status?

 

Is it any different than giving priests extra scrutiny when searching for pedophiles?

 

 

cause everyone happily writes a check to the IRS every year

[murraysovereign]

Up here, the Harper government made a big public deal of doing exactly the same thing, targeting any organization with a green/environmental component to their activities and singling them out for "special treatment" from the taxation agencies with an eye to stripping them of whatever tax status they may have enjoyed. Our conservatives were strangely silent on that one (actually they weren't - they were opening supportive), but they're gleefully bashing Obama all over the place over this IRS business. Transnational hypocrisy?

[JayB]

"Transnational Hypocrisy" sounds like a great name for a route on American Border Peak!

 

What sort of legal/statutory/constitutional protections are supposed to be in place to prevent the government from using the tax code to single out particular citizens or groups from this kind of abuse up there?

 

 

 

 

[glassgowkiss]

Why is it wrong to give groups that oppose the collection of taxes extra scrutiny when they apply for tax-exempt status?

 

Is it any different than giving priests extra scrutiny when searching for pedophiles?

you made me spill my coffee through the nose!

[pink]

Why is it wrong to give groups that oppose the collection of taxes extra scrutiny when they apply for tax-exempt status?

 

Is it any different than giving priests extra scrutiny when searching for pedophiles?

you made me spill my coffee through the nose!

 

 

were you standing on ur head?