Ivan: I 1240...GO

[prole]

A. Get some money.

B. Buy your way into a better situation.

 

Works for lines at the airport, should be fine when applied across the board.

 

Platinum Class, bitches!

[Crux]

 

Washington State Supreme Court: Charter schools are unconstitutional

 

In the ruling, Chief Justice Barbara Madsen wrote that charter schools aren’t “common schools” because they’re governed by appointed rather than elected boards.

 

Therefore, “money that is dedicated to common schools is unconstitutionally diverted to charter schools,” Madsen wrote.

The ruling is a victory for the coalition that filed the suit in July 2013, asking a judge to declare the law unconstitutional for “improperly diverting public-school funds to private organizations that are not subject to local voter control.”

[ivan]

if i were a charter school fan i wouldn't freak out just yet - the current government and legislature of our fair state has proven quite capable of utterly ignoring the decrees of the high court, no?

[Ben Beckerich]

Has anyone ever done a dollar-for-dollar comparison of finished product between charter schools and regular public schools?

[ivan]

how on earth would one go about putting a price tag on a human being's path to enlightenment?

[Ben Beckerich]

Easy.. put a dollar amount next to test scores and see who's making better students for less money

[ivan]

would it be fair to compare a charter school cherry-picking it's students w/ a public school taking the left-overs?

 

does a test score really indicate what's a good student?

 

is the ideal path for every kid one that a test score can easily be attached to?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

would it be fair to compare a charter school cherry-picking it's students w/ a public school taking the left-overs?

 

does a test score really indicate what's a good student?

 

is the ideal path for every kid one that a test score can easily be attached to?

 

good points

 

I say we keep Charter Schools since they may work better for *some* kids. :-)

 

[Jim]

 

I say we keep Charter Schools since they may work better for *some* kids. :-)

 

Except there is not valid proof of this.

[ivan]

whether charter schools work or not, as I understand it, the point of the court is that charter schools should not draw off funds needed for public schools - the court is no doubt grumpy that its earlier ruling on public school funding is being ignored

[Jim]

Good point - could be.

[Ben Beckerich]

would it be fair to compare a charter school cherry-picking it's students w/ a public school taking the left-overs?

 

does a test score really indicate what's a good student?

 

is the ideal path for every kid one that a test score can easily be attached to?

 

I'm pretty sure charter schools have the same admittance standards and requirements as any other publicly funded school.. so the only cherry-picking going on is gonna be which parents are going to invest the extra bit of time to get their kids in a charter school. Some parents are complete fuckups and could never get their lives together well enough for a day out of the year to go get their kid signed up. Fortunately for me, I don't have to send my kids to school with their kids ('cause those kids are just as fucked up as their fuckup parents).

 

If we're looking for a way to measure how efficient a school is operating, yea man... we have to look at performance-to-dollars. We can also foster all this BS you're implying, but we do have finite tax dollars and have policy decisions to make - gotta have some kind of frame of reference. Dollars ~ scores

[ivan]

sounds like back-pedaling to the old "separate but equal" idea?

[Ben Beckerich]

4 of my 6 kids go to a charter school. They've primarily been home schooled, and essentially still are... but they go attend class one day a week. As they get older and the curriculum becomes more advanced we need more help in "teaching" them. Some of their math crap is over my head... largely because of one of the beautiful things about charter schools: all of them have subject curriculum well ahead of their "grade" level. My oldest is at high school level in several subjects, at 11 years old, and just gobbles it all up. Public school would do nothing but hold these guys back years ahead of their potential.

 

I genuinely feel bad for all the crack babies in the world. I also genuinely don't think my kids need to have shit to do with them, especially not be handicapped by them.

[ivan]

there's only a handful of charter schools in the state at the moment - i'd imagine that fact alone means they can't accept whoever applies - public schools get no such choice

[ivan]

our kids sound like they're in pretty similiar places (though holy christ, 6? i was doooone at 2 ) - we also largely home-school, but then that's a luxury simply not available to the vast majority of families - there are also plenty of public schools able to offer all kinds of high end programs

[Jim]

would it be fair to compare a charter school cherry-picking it's students w/ a public school taking the left-overs?

 

does a test score really indicate what's a good student?

 

is the ideal path for every kid one that a test score can easily be attached to?

 

I'm pretty sure charter schools have the same admittance standards and requirements as any other publicly funded school..

 

In theory yes - in actuality, a big no. Charter schools most often start by a active parent group with some goal in mind - this doesn't include special education students - least I haven't seen it. And the reason is clear - WA doesn't provide enough resources. It's the same reason that if you have a special needs kid a private school doesn't have to provide these resources - but, supposedly a public school does.

 

So if you have a kid with moderate Ausburgers you are not going to send him to the new Charter School with an emphasis on technology - rather you will look around at the existing public schools that have the best reputation for inclusion and good special education staff. So it ends up a self-selecting filter.

[Ben Beckerich]

would it be fair to compare a charter school cherry-picking it's students w/ a public school taking the left-overs?

 

does a test score really indicate what's a good student?

 

is the ideal path for every kid one that a test score can easily be attached to?

 

I'm pretty sure charter schools have the same admittance standards and requirements as any other publicly funded school..

 

In theory yes - in actuality, a big no. Charter schools most often start by a active parent group with some goal in mind - this doesn't include special education students - least I haven't seen it. And the reason is clear - WA doesn't provide enough resources. It's the same reason that if you have a special needs kid a private school doesn't have to provide these resources - but, supposedly a public school does.

 

So if you have a kid with moderate Ausburgers you are not going to send him to the new Charter School with an emphasis on technology - rather you will look around at the existing public schools that have the best reputation for inclusion and good special education staff. So it ends up a self-selecting filter.

 

OK.. but is this a problem? As you say, the point of the charter school is to cater to the unique needs of certain kids or situations... just like special education services in regular schools (which you're obviously not going to find any non-developmentally impaired kids in).

 

Perhaps you're not stating this as a problem

[Jim]

I'm just saying it is what it is. It works out great for the folks who have enough time, money, energy to put into a system and then draw off public funds. And then the "real" public schools get to deal with the real-world problems of dealing with all-comers.

 

Ya can't fault parents wanting to have the best for their kid - it's just a shame that we don't want to put the resources where they are needed in dealing with the relevant issues. It's more of the same -- those with more time, money, education, and resources come out on top.

[Jim]

just like special education services in regular schools (which you're obviously not going to find any non-developmentally impaired kids in).

 

 

I'm having trouble with this last sentence - which is a double negative inferring that developmentally impaired kids are not in "regular" school???

[Ben Beckerich]

just like special education services in regular schools (which you're obviously not going to find any non-developmentally impaired kids in).

 

 

I'm having trouble with this last sentence - which is a double negative inferring that developmentally impaired kids are not in "regular" school???

 

Nope... they kept the special ed kids in the basement, when I was in school. Did you have "speshuls" in class when you were a kid?

[ivan]

special ed law has come a very long way in 20 years, and arguably for the good - the inevitable truth of course is that special ed requires a lot more $ per pupil

[Jim]

just like special education services in regular schools (which you're obviously not going to find any non-developmentally impaired kids in).

 

 

I'm having trouble with this last sentence - which is a double negative inferring that developmentally impaired kids are not in "regular" school???

 

 

Nope... they kept the special ed kids in the basement, when I was in school. Did you have "speshuls" in class when you were a kid?

 

 

Then I assume you meant to put a past tense verb in the sentence -- today it's different. Which is one of the Seattle Teacher's strike issues - very underfunded student-teacher ratios for speech therapists and various special education needs.

[Ben Beckerich]

So you're saying special needs kids are intermingled with "normal" kids now?

[Jim]

Absolutely. The old "tracking" model has been dead for some time -- for a lot of good reasons. The model now is integration, where kids spend all or some of their time in regular classes with an Instructional Aid assisting to accommodate the lesson and homework to match their ability. And then they periodically get pulled out for more small group instruction and practice.

 

It's not my field, but I think a couple of reasons for this is to help kids learn social integration skills and get bumped up a bit by association with higher learners. And I can only speak from my limited first-hand volunteer experience and from what my science-teacher spouse tells me.

 

But for some kids, especially the bright Ausburger kids this really helps. Other developmentally handicapped kids - they get some basic skill out of the class but it's more for socialization. And yea, it can be quite the challenge for teachers. And the "normal" kids also learn from the experience, help these kids, are often quite protective of them, and learn some important humanity lessons.