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dkatz12090

Folding a single rope in half while ridge/simul

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I've read about people taking a singe rope, folding it in half, and then tying in (team of 2) for simul climbing, especially on moderate terrain (4th-5th class ridges)....

 

How does this effect the simul process, if at all? I would want to clip into alternate ropes, as if in a half rope system, correct? I imagine coiling might be a bit more cumbersome if we wanted to climb closer together than 30m, but should still be manageable....any thoughts, experiences?

 

What is the standard way for both the leader and follower to climb into such a systems. Figure 8 on a bite for the follower, and two normal figure eights for the leader?

 

Thanks everyone!

Drew

 

 

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use the Kiwi Coil if you want to shorten a 'single' rated rope. way easier and cleaner.

 

And you have some rope available if you run into a rescue situation.

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I second Kurt's recommendation and would add that with one strand between you there's a lot less rope drag on low angle, uneven terrain, you don't have to worry about which strand to clip, and you still have a full length rope for rapping if needed.

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where did you read about doubling a fat rope? I've never seen this practice recommended... I have for decades folded a twin-rope double for moderate alpine ground to save a bunch of weight. I'm having trouble imagining why you'd want to double a heavier rope.

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I second Kurt's recommendation and would add that with one strand between you there's a lot less rope drag on low angle, uneven terrain, you don't have to worry about which strand to clip, and you still have a full length rope for rapping if needed.

 

And on choss there's only one strand to be cut

::skull::

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where did you read about doubling a fat rope? I've never seen this practice recommended... I have for decades folded a twin-rope double for moderate alpine ground to save a bunch of weight. I'm having trouble imagining why you'd want to double a heavier rope.

 

This is what I've done as well. Skinny (half/twin) ropes may be folded, but fat ropes should be coiled.

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If you fell on a doubled single rope and managed to have both strands take the fall, your impact forces would go way up. Much better to use a single strand w/ coils, or a doubled half (or even better-twin) rope.

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Thanks everyone for the input.

 

With a single rope, simul climbing on alpine rock, what is the best way for the follower to tie in assuming that he/she has coiled them rope (mountaineers coil?)? Kiwi coil?

 

And with a half rope folded over, what is the best way for the leader/follower to tie in?

 

thanks so much!

 

 

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Use the Kiwi if you're going to get to a spot where you need to extend it out again. That's the best use of it. If you're going to do your climb with no extension at all from where you're doing the coil, you can simply do a mountaineers coil and then uncoil it in camp or something.

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Thanks - I;ll look into the kiwi coil.

 

What about coiling the rope, then tying in wherever you are in the rope with a figure eight on a bight. that way is you fall, the pull is on your harness rather then on the rope around your shoulder?

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no matter the method you use, the pull should always be on the harness. When using a kiwi coil I usually tie into the end with a fig-8, coil away, then tie a butterfly and tie in with that again. If you need to drop the coils, you're already tied in at the end...

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no matter the method you use, the pull should always be on the harness. When using a kiwi coil I usually tie into the end with a fig-8, coil away, then tie a butterfly and tie in with that again. If you need to drop the coils, you're already tied in at the end...

FWIW, I usually tie a kiwi coil with a normal tie off, and then tie an 8 or an overhand on a bight and clip in. A butterfly is unnecessary (the pull is still in one direction).

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no matter the method you use, the pull should always be on the harness. When using a kiwi coil I usually tie into the end with a fig-8, coil away, then tie a butterfly and tie in with that again. If you need to drop the coils, you're already tied in at the end...

FWIW, I usually tie a kiwi coil with a normal tie off, and then tie an 8 or an overhand on a bight and clip in. A butterfly is unnecessary (the pull is still in one direction).

 

Thanks everyone for the input. If clipping a figure eight on a bight or butterfly knot to your belay loop, would you use the same locking biner as you used to tie off the overhand of your backup, or use a separate biner altogether? Probably doesn't matter, but just curious....

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I don't think it matters. Basically, the knot at the end of the rope that's tied in or clipped in is no longer in the system so that carabiner with your figure-8/butterfly is the main attachment point now. Usually, if this is an end person, I have them tie in anyway so the biner is already an extra piece until you clip the knot on the kiwi into the harness. On a middle person, I'd just use the same biner - keep in mind if you use the same biner, have a partner check that its locked both when clipping in the Kiwi and then re-extending the rope.

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tie off your kiwi coils with a barrel knot (a.k.a. half a double fishermens). No need for a backup carabiner.

 

Then do what Chris suggested -- tie a bight knot and clip in with a locker.

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Bowline on a coil.

 

If you do 8 on a bite it gets loose and makes a Heck of a mess generally. Bowline keeps the loops tightly tied in my experience whereas after a bit one is always fiddling with the bite when it loosens up and pretty soon you have loops dragging on your gear and soon your thighs/knees.

 

Enjoy

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I use the Kiwi coil with both single ropes and doubled twin ropes, and in my experience, the two strand configuration makes no functional difference - just saves weight.

 

I finish off my Kiwi coil with an overhand-on-a-bight tied AROUND THE COIL, like a mule knot, at my chest, then clip the tail of the bight to my harness tie-in point with a locking carabiner. (tie into the end of the rope in the standard way, then coil towards the middle of the rope and tie the "mule-on-bight" at the point you stop coiling. make your coils somewhat snug, and this rigging turns the coils into a functional chest harness which shares any loading with your climbing harness. (holding you upright, even with a big pack, in the event of a crevasse, or any, fall) If I recall correctly, this is what I saw originally presented to the California region of the AMGA in the Buttermilks back in '88, by S.P. Parker, for whom John Fisher (then owner of Palisades School of Mountaineering in Bishop) proposed the name "Kiwi Coil" (because S.P. is from New Zealand) Younger generation AMGA guides tell me S.P presents the technique these days with a perfectly straight face never alluding to his connection with the name, but I get a kick out of telling the story - a bit of "myth-making"...

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I use the Kiwi coil with both single ropes and doubled twin ropes, and in my experience, the two strand configuration makes no functional difference - just saves weight.

 

I finish off my Kiwi coil with an overhand-on-a-bight tied AROUND THE COILED STRANDS, like a "mule-on-bight", at my chest, then clip the tail of the bight to my harness tie-in point with a locking carabiner. Begin by tieing into the end of the rope in the standard way, then coil from your tie-in towards the middle of the rope and tie the "mule-on-bight" at the point you stop coiling. make your coils somewhat snug, and the tail of your "mule-on-a-bight" short so there no slack between the mule and your seat-harness, and this rigging turns the coils into a functional chest harness which shares any loading with your climbing harness. (holding you upright, even with a big pack, in the event of a crevasse, or any, fall) If I recall correctly, this is what I saw originally presented to the California region of the AMGA in the Buttermilks back in '88, by S.P. Parker, for whom John Fisher (then owner of Palisades School of Mountaineering in Bishop) proposed the name "Kiwi Coil" (because S.P. is from New Zealand) Current generation AMGA guides tell me S.P presents the technique nowadays with a perfectly straight face, never alluding to his connection with the name (he didn't invent it, after all, just introduced it in the US) but I get a kick out of telling the story - doing a bit of "myth-making"...

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