ScottP Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I remember reading about how Alan Watts tried to close City Park with a bunch of axle grease. quote: Originally posted by Dru: How many people made free ascents of City Park anyways. Todd and Hugh Herr are the only two I've ever heard of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Originally posted by rbw1966: Welcome to participatory democracy. If you want to abdicate all your political powers to some dipshit in office feel free. Hey, guess what? Any "dipshit" can run for office. Sounds like you've got the savvy. Go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Scottp What are you talking about? Alan Watts rubbing axle grease in the crack??????? It was the freaking stooge locals that couldn't handle out-o-towners f'ng up their world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenfork Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Originally posted by rbw1966: Welcome to participatory democracy. If you want to abdicate all your political powers to some dipshit in office feel free. these referendums do seem like a stupid way to legislate. democracy doesn't make sense in this case, because most people are too ignorant and greedy. it should be the jobs of the "dipshits" we elected to office to make laws. of course everyone's going to vote for less taxes. 30$ car tabs... sure why not! i don't think the average joe/jane is able to fully comprehend the "big pictures" of the things they narrow-mindedly vote for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Well put, Greenfork. I think the average citizen sometimes lacks the vision and expertise to make these sorts of decisions. I vote for, and pay the salaries of, my elected representatives to have that vision and expertise. If I think I know something they don't, or want them to change course, I get in touch with them and let them know. As a citizen, I don't think I can change the world, but if a few citizens let their needs and agendas be known to those, er "dipshits", well, then, things can reach a tipping point. I too feel that the initiative process has been horribly abused of late. We are not the only state regularly legislating by initiative. California's voters are upto the same hijinxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I 776 was a bad idea. It will be thrown out in court as taxpayers have already committed to the Sound Transit bonds. (Even though taxpayers were originally LIED to by light rail proponents.) Just a clearification here....I-695 was struck down by the Wa State Supreme Court. The liscense tab reduction was enacted into law by THE LEGISLATURE and signed by Gov. Gary Locke, Democrat. My property taxes have gone from $750 to $2600 in 13 years. Where did that money go? This is well above the inflation rate. Did the state government just use it to "grow" itself and buy new state vehicles? Did they "redistribute" it to those "less fortunate"? I'm not seeing better state services. They sure didn't use it to give teachers a raise. Where did it go? Please Mr Big Government! Educate me so I'll be happy to give YOU more of my money and not spend it on another(Matt) Audi A4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted November 14, 2002 Author Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Bronco: Come over to the darkside Matt. Become a Capitalist and you can have your own park! We could use some creative thinking over here anyway. Things have gotten dull with all the Enron boys out of the picture, those guys could make money appear out of thin air I tell ya'. Thanks for the invite Bronco! When me lucky charms finally lead me to the pot o' gold I think I will buy my own park. There's some nice property for sale in the Icicle! As for participatory democracy, filling in a bubble on a ballot is a pretty lame way of "participating" in one's own self governance. I favor a more active approach: join the Marines or build a house with Habitat for Humanity or serve as a volunteer fire fighter or join a union or go to your local town hall and sit in on the city council meetings and make your voice be heard! Do something. Contribute actively! I think Alison has it right. We elect legislators to pass laws and run government and all Tim Eyman seems to do is stymie any forward movement. Fairweather, I was waiting all day for you to show up! Let me tell you my friend, I don't know why your property taxes have gone up. Maybe it's because you property value has gone up? Yes, we would all like to see more in public services for the taxes we pay. My point is maybe we'd get more if we gave more! Now I know you don't trust government to spend the money wisely, but that's why I say decentralize! Let local government collect the taxes and make the decisions if it is capable. King County was unable to be fiscally responsible enough to manage something as simple as a park. That pisses me off!!! From what I understand the City of Mercer Island bought the park so I wonder what that means for the future. Will those of us who don't live there have to pay to use the park? If so, that will really piss me off. Yes, we should pay more taxes. We need better hiways, better mass transit, more services. Those who have more should pay more. Fairweather, it sounds like you have more, so you deservedly pay more. How do you like them apples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Those who have more should pay more. Fairweather, it sounds like you have more, so you deservedly pay more. How do you like them apples? i'll start paying more as soon as the bastards that make millions pay their fucking share... seriously...what is the big deal with nto jsut having a blanket % based tax strategy? wouldn't that make more sense? but no, and dont blame this on the mainstream conservatives either, yuo think those multimillionbucko demos are pushing for a huge hit to their millions? think again... the obvious solution to this problem is to make all politicians middle class so they push for benefeits for the middle class... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted November 14, 2002 Author Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Fence Sitter: i'll start paying more as soon as the bastards that make millions pay their fucking share... seriously...what is the big deal with nto jsut having a blanket % based tax strategy? wouldn't that make more sense? but no, and dont blame this on the mainstream conservatives either, yuo think those multimillionbucko demos are pushing for a huge hit to their millions? think again... the obvious solution to this problem is to make all politicians middle class so they push for benefeits for the middle class... I totally agree fence sitter. That is why a income tax is more fair to the average joe than a sales tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILuvAliens Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Question I want to know is: What are they keeping in the budget? How do they weight what the money should be used for? Do they close the parks because they think people might come around and pay more taxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Fence Sitter: i'll start paying more as soon as the bastards that make millions pay their fucking share... the obvious solution to this problem is to make all politicians middle class so they push for benefeits for the middle class... Aren't you a student? You probably aren't in a position to be a tax revolter unless that work-study job pays real good. The other thing that comes to mind is that this particular discussion is based on local politics, and on that level, there's hardly a political leader who is NOT working-class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 i do all right allison i make enough to pay for my 'liberal arts education' but seriously... i would be much more receptive to paying my fair share (which i have to admit i dont) if i saw people making 7-8 and up figures paying less than a fraction of the percentage that i am supposed to pay...croc...especially considering i am currently enrolled in university...lame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Fair enough, FS. And that is another discussion altogether, that we should have in another thread about how to rewrite the Federal Tax Code. Nobody's been able to some up with a good solution for that yet, so we might as well sit down and tackle it. But in the meantime, this here thread is about local politics...so STAY FOCUSED!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 thread drift... i think i am the genious that can reform taxes... okay here we go... -everyone gets 10% income tax and %5 sales tax... -smokers get 60% 'smoking tax' (purchase of cigaretts etc) -drinkers get a 20% 'alcohol tax'(on purchaswe of alcohol) -have kids, get $500 per year per kid (up to 3 kids) -make more than $500,000 per annum? 30% income tax -make more than 7 figures, 40% tax -make less tahn $18,000 0% income tax -make under $20,000 with kids 0% c'est finis...wasn't so hard was it...some punk ass 21 year old university student just did what 100's of guys making 6-7 figures couldn't do...hmm something is wrong with this picture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnGoat Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 hi matt, I'll have a go... "Well, I say America is. We are the richest nation in the world. We have everything. Money, power, everything. We are the only superpower left standing." A couple things. For one, no matter how rich we are, there is a bottom to the cornucopia and the spending levels given combining federal and state taxation give ample evidence of just how ambitious spending can be. It is entirely possible to drain any cornucopia! Secondly, that wealth exists is not an excuse to remove it from the control of those who earn it just because it's there. Now obviously even such a right winger as myself still agrees with some level of public taxation, but this does not indicate support for wholesale confiscation to support one sides views of expansive and nearly endless plans for everyone else. "Personally, I would like to see a state income tax in Washington so we could have the resources to solve our local problems ourselves." Wouldn't happen. No amount of money can solve spending problems caused by people who cannot constrain their own spending. the richest individuals have spending problems and budget concerns just as the richest states do. Unless spending constraint exists, all that happens with greater supplies of cash is bigger spending problems. "I think closing parks to save money is akin to cutting after school sports and art class in public schools-- an atrocity in our afluent society." A agree. What should be cut is building apartments for drunks! "He's just a greedy selfish pig who doesn't want to give any of his money to help anyone but himself." Then he shouldn't have to. Individuals are not someone elses toys to be ordered about to meet that third parties social goals. Just as you should not be constrained from giving any amount you have to issues you support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 What is this "apartments for drunks" business that the right-wing contingent has so vigorously latched onto? Is it some concrete box they're going to sweep up all the street people into? Luxury condos with Corian counter tops and platinum plumbing fixtures? A rehabilitation program? Seems like every time one of you refers to it, it's always "apartments for drunks," which sounds suspiciously like a handy catch phrase that some fear-monger has injected into the local lexicon to rile people up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Originally posted by RuMR: Scottp What are you talking about? Alan Watts rubbing axle grease in the crack??????? It was the freaking stooge locals that couldn't handle out-o-towners f'ng up their world... Reach into your pants and untwist your undies... I wasn't there, so I don't know anything more than I'm sure I read in one of the rags that it was Alan Watts. If you say it was the locals, I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Wasn't it Alan Lester (as if it makes a whit of difference)? [ 11-14-2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Dr Flash Amazing ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 i herd it was sharma... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 quote: Reach into your pants and untwist your undies... I wasn't there, so I don't know anything more than I'm sure I read in one of the rags that it was Alan Watts. If you say it was the locals, I stand corrected. I'll undo my undies when you pull your thong out of yo' crack... Whatever...first off, it was todd skinner who spent off and on over a year trying to get that thing to beat alan to the punch...as it was, alan never did do an ascent but came very very close in just a weekend. Alan, at that time, was probably hands down the best crack climber in the country. I worked for alan in 1992 and got alot of this first hand, although its been awhile, and he's about the most honest person around and laughs because of how uptight the locals were that somebody could actually climb that hard, when he considered it as a possible onsight. He wound up cutting his finger bad enough to go home and never wound up back here. By the time it looked like todd was going to actually do that thing, the locals smeared grease in to stop him and Alan was long gone. Jeff Smoot had a decent writeup on the whole ascent of city park on his website a while ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I heard it was this guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 Greasy Story about City Park Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Natural Posted November 14, 2002 Share Posted November 14, 2002 I heard another story. The one I heard claimed that Skinner traversed over to the top of 'zilla. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Last I read, the richest 10% pay over 60% of federal income tax collections. Do you really think a FLAT TAX would make middle-class taxes go DOWN? I don't even need my calculator to figure that one out. Seems to me the current tax system is "progressive" enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted November 15, 2002 Share Posted November 15, 2002 Just read the linked story. It is utter horse shit. My buddy Joel and I were out there on that Friday night. We camped on top of the big flat boulder in the quarry that night (we rode a bus from Seattle and were camped at Index for the week). On Todd's ascent, just as daylight failed, he actually had the rope through a very high piece. He had no gear on his rack and placed not one piece of pro. Instead, he top-roped up to the crux, fired it, and then moved right to finish on Godzilla. Jeff was belaying, and nobody but Joel, Jeff Smoot and I witnessed the ascent. We heard the swearing, we saw him move right. We heard Todd ask how hard the mantle is, and Jeff told him it was 10c. The ascent was continuous.....a continuous top-rope to the crux, followed by a big, big run-out to the belay (with the Godzilla finish). The other details (of how he placed the gear on this lead) are evidence of Jeff's vivid imagination. I was impressed with the climb, but I was not impressed with the style. Later that year, I witnessed Peter Croft down solo the Nose on Jello Tower. In retrospect, these events both left an enormous impression on me. I chose to accept my limitations and climb in good style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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