Flying with fuel.

[Dan_Harris]

A couple of days ago I picked up a friend at the airport. As I was waiting there was a display of items that are not to be taken, even in checked luggage. The display had a couple of MSR fuel bottles and mentioned propane & butane canisters among other items. What I wondered is "are these more volatile than say a can of WD-40 or hair spray?" There are a warnings on these and other products about puncturing and incinerating. Anyone ever held a lighter in front of either of these as they were being sprayed? Makes an awesome flame. Hell,the butane / propane canisters are taken to altitude and I haven't heard of packers or climbers blowing up due to the pressure difference. Do the airlines think people will make bombs out of them? I am all for security on the airlines but I think they have gone a little overboard. My $0.02 worth, end of rant. Head for the hills and have a cold one, doesn't matter what order.

[Thinker]

I hear flying with fuel kills brain cells........

[Thinker]

Actually, I believe it is the FAA (not the airlines) that prohibits flamable chemicals from being transported on passenger aircraft. These regulations were in place long before 9/11.

 

'Personal grooming' items such as hairspray seem to be acceptable to the FAA, and are often allowed by airlines, but some do prohibit many kinds of aerosol cans. I personally would rather face a terrorist with an aerosol can and a lighter than one with a molotov cocktails made from a MSR fuel bottle...think shrapnel and burning kerosene! It would be pretty tough to explode an aerosol can without an intense heat source, and if someone did, the flame would burn itself out almost immediately due to the fact that it's a gaseous mixture (as opposed to a flamable liquid.)

 

Just my take on it..............

 

[ 08-16-2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

[Gordonb]

Also an improperly sealed fuel canister could leak and cause a very flamable mess. The FAA has to assume that whatever fluid is packed will not stay in it's container.

 

Personally I agree. I don't think full fuel canisters should be allowed on a plane.

[payaso]

What sucks is that they do not allow the fuel bottle if it has ever been used before. That is, it sucks for everyone except MSR, and others.

[fern]

I've flown many times with empty used MSR bottles and never had one confiscated, even after having one physically inspected and sniffed.

[Gordonb]

I can see (but don't agree with) not allowing used containers. The fumes can be fairly explosive. It is an overboard response to a perceived security threat.

 

[ 08-16-2002, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Gordonb ]

[Dan_Harris]

I guess I am thinking more of checked bags and not in the cabin. I understand the leaking fuel argument. How about a propane/butane canister (that is what I use) that has never been used? There is a seal over the opening. Aerosols can leak. How about gas freed and empty MSR bottles?

[jules]

Had my unused isobutane canisters confiscated from my pack on the way to Calif a few years ago.

[Gordonb]

I was talking about checked bags. I had my checked bag soaked with Kaluha one trip. If that had been white gas it would have made my soft side bag into a potential flameball.

 

I don't have any problem with sealed canisters, but the airlines have to be conservative and they have to make it simple for the security types. Do you think that the same folks that are confiscating tonail clippers would let through flamable gas no matter how it is packed?

 

The rules aren't there for safety, they are there to make people feel safe.

[Dru]

The rules say one thing but what you can get away with is something else and varies quite a bit. Before I went to New Zealand, and coming back, I took my stove fuel bottle, washed it out with rubbing alcohol, flamed the interior after drying by dropping a lighted match in to burn up any remnant fuel, then put it in my pack along with and mixed in with a whole bunch of aluminum cams. It made it through the xray machine both ways just fine.

[fern]

another trick is to pack the caps separately and repaint the bottle.

 

I can't remember where but somewhere I read that on some domestic flights in the himalaya area you are allowed a stove fuel limit of 100 litres ... maybe its bullshit

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Those fucking airlines are so hypocritical. You can't bring a half a liter of white gas on the plane, but for some reason it's OK for the wings to be full of like 500 gallons of Jet A fuel? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Dru]

alcohol is flammable and they SERVE it on flights!

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Holy frigging crap! No wonder so many airline passengers spontaneously combust!

 

Stop the insanity! No more on airlines!

[allthumbs]

What do an investment banker who defecates on a service cart and then wipes himself with a linen napkin in front of a handful of shocked first class passengers, several Frenchmen who go berserk over what they call an inferior inflight meal, and the occasional fellow who performs a striptease in the aisle have in common?

 

Alcohol and a captive audience.

[Greg_W]

quote:

---

Originally posted by trask:

What do an investment banker who defecates on a service cart and then wipes himself with a linen napkin in front of a handful of shocked first class passengers, several Frenchmen who go berserk over what they call an inferior inflight meal, and the occasional fellow who performs a striptease in the aisle have in common?

 

Alcohol and a captive audience.

---

What's your excuse for doing all those things in a bar with two working doors?

[Rick_Sharpless]

Neither the FAA nor any airline allows fuel, bottled or not. Neither airlines nor even the postal service will (knowingly) carry butanes or other gasses, sealed or not. Bad idea, big fine.

 

Empties varies by airline. Call the airline and ask ahead of time. I've carried a lot of empties without confiscation.

 

I once heard Canada does not permit any fuel bottles that have ever been used, no matter what they smell like, in airline baggage. Government rule, regardless of airline. I've also heard it is just like in the USA, no government rule, ask the airline about empty bottles. Anyone have any info on Canadian rules?

 

All of ths predates 9/11 by many years.

[texplorer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thinker:

I personally would rather face a terrorist with an aerosol can and a lighter than one with a molotov cocktails made from a MSR fuel bottle...think shrapnel and burning kerosene!

 

---

A molotov cocktail has to be in a glass bottle so that when it is thrown it can break and spread burning gas everywhere. I think the worst you could expect from a MSR bottle would be getting knocked out when the thing hits you on the head.

[Thinker]

quote:

---

A molotov cocktail has to be in a glass bottle so that when it is thrown it can break and spread burning gas everywhere. I think the worst you could expect from a MSR bottle would be getting knocked out when the thing hits you on the head.

---

Granted, the traditional MC is made using a glass container. It's primary purpose is to start fires. If one, however, wanted to maim people, an explosion using aluminum or other metal would likely be more effective. Though I've not done it (nor would I ever consider it), I understand that one of the best lowtech bombs can be made using an (empty) compressed gas cylinder, a good source of combustible material (fertilizer dissolved in an accelerant), and an ignition source. The thick walled cylinder forces the reaction to create significant pressure before it blows, thus potentially causing greater damage than the wimpy 55-gallon drums that were used in Oklahoma City. The same priniciple is used in firearms, except that the explosive force is directed out the end of the barrel, pushing a projectile along the way.

 

Back to the fuel bottle, the most dangerous scenario is when the bottle has a trace of liquid fuel in it, the remainder of the cylinder volume being filled with vapors which are actually more explosive than the liqiud fuel. That's really why airlines frown on transporting bottles that have been used, even if they appear to be empty.

 

I'm really surprised that the guy who 'flamed' his empty bottle in an earlier post wasn't injured. He was damned lucky!

 

I rinse my bottles with hot water a number of times before transporting them as checked baggage. I always pack the lids separately from the bottles. I've never had a problem with them.

 

A guide in Alaska told me that he often packs a 'dummy' stove near the top of his pack so if an airline gets sticky over the 'used' stove possibly containing fuel vapors, he can just hand it to them, knowing full well that his good stove is burried in the cookset in the bottom of the pack.

 

[ 08-19-2002, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thinker:

quote:

---

A molotov cocktail has to be in a glass bottle so that when it is thrown it can break and spread burning gas everywhere. I think the worst you could expect from a MSR bottle would be getting knocked out when the thing hits you on the head.

---

Granted, the traditional MC is made using a glass container. It's primary purpose is to start fires. If one, however, wanted to maim people, an explosion using aluminum or other metal would likely be more effective. Though I've not done it (nor would I ever consider it), I understand that one of the best lowtech bombs can be made using an (empty) compressed gas cylinder, a good source of combustible material (fertilizer dissolved in an accelerant), and an ignition source. The thick walled cylinder forces the reaction to create significant pressure before it blows, thus potentially causing greater damage than the wimpy 55-gallon drums that were used in Oklahoma City. The same priniciple is used in firearms, except that the explosive force is directed out the end of the barrel, pushing a projectile along the way.

 

Back to the fuel bottle, the most dangerous scenario is when the bottle has a trace of liquid fuel in it, the remainder of the cylinder volume being filled with vapors which are actually more explosive than the liqiud fuel. That's really why airlines frown on transporting bottles that have been used, even if they appear to be empty.

 

I'm really surprised that the guy who 'flamed' his empty bottle in an earlier post wasn't injured. He was damned lucky!

 

I rinse my bottles with hot water a number of times before transporting them as checked baggage. I always pack the lids separately from the bottles. I've never had a problem with them.

 

A guide in Alaska told me that he often packs a 'dummy' stove near the top of his pack so if an airline gets sticky over the 'used' stove possibly containing fuel vapors, he can just hand it to them, knowing full well that his good stove is burried in the cookset in the bottom of the pack.

---

it was me that flamed the bottle and i did it AFTER washing just to get rid of any lingering vapours. and it worked! actually there wasdnt even a bit of extra flame cause the washing did the trick, but better safe than sorry i guess.

[Thinker]

Sorry Dru, the concept of washing a flamable liquid out of a container with another flamable liquid just seemed a little..........different. I'm sure if it air-dryed for a while before flaming it it would be fine.

 

I just wanted to point out the danger in case some imbecile reading all this decided to drop a match into a recently emptied fuel bottle....boom!

 

I used to work with some welders who did some krazy sh*t with oxygen, acetylene, metal pipes, and other stuff I don't feel the need to expound on.

 

[ 08-19-2002, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Thinker ]

[Dru]

i figured, soap and water might leave residues that could contaminate fuel in future, whereas alcohol is volatile and evaporates in a few minutes. so wash with rubbing alcohol then let dry in the sun for 30 minutes before flaming.

[Thinker]

your reasoning becomes more clear with a bit of explanation. thanks for being patient.

 

I agree about a residue from soap.

 

Ideally, I'd use an acid solution to decompose the hydrocarbons and then rinse with water. That's part of the accepted protocol for decontaminating metalic sampling equipment used to sample soil and water for hydrocarbons. I'm too lazy for all that and get by with really hot water. I insist on completely drying them as fast as possible to prevent corrosion (yes, aluminum can oxidize).